Minutes of Web Ontology Working Group teleconference of June 5, 2003 (original) (raw)

Minutes of Web Ontology Working Group teleconference of June 5, 2003

Chair: Jim Hendler Scribe: Peter Patel-Schneider

1.0 Admin

Roll Call

Next telecon: June 12, usual time chair: Guus Schreiber Scribe: Charles White

Attendance

Jim Hendler, Sandro Hawke, Jean-Francois Baget, Dan Connolly, Frank van Harmelen, Jeff Heflin, Jeremy Carroll, Evan Wallace, Mike Smith, Peter F. Patel-Schneider, Herman ter Horst, Chris Welty, Sean Bechhofer, Tim Finin, Mike Dean, Pat Hayes (joined late), maybe one or two unidentified

Minutes of May 29 telecon http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0402.html accepted (amended to spell Peter's last name right) as correct.

Kudos to Jeremy: LC Test document published announcement to chairs (member only link): http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2003AprJun/0064.html

2.0 Action review

ACTION: Jim Hendler to report back on implementation feedback. DONE

ACTION: Jim Hendler and Dan Connolly to compose a response to the LC comment on local and compound keys. CONTINUED - should be done in a day or two

ACTION: Dan Connolly publish XML syntax RE: ACTION: Mike Smith and Guus Schreiber will review proposed changes to Guide and Reference for next telecom. (in re reference) IN PROGRESS - expected to be done by 9 June

ACTION: Mike Smith will pdate issue list 5.06 (in re: imports closure) ACTION: Mike Smith to update issue list 5.20 about synonyms with the specific problem of owl:Class vs rdfs:Class ASSIGNED to Dan Connolly

ACTION: Jos de Roo to propose a test based on the example given by peter (context lost) DONE

ACTION: Guus to propose a definition for "class description". DONE

ACTION: Mike Smith to update the Guide glossary accordingly (possibly removing "class expression"). DONE

ACTION: DanC to get I18N WG review of last call specs, continued from ~17 years back 1/2;-) CONTINUED - expected sometime soon

ACTION: Jeremy add test: {a,b} unionOf {a} {b} CONTINUED - expected next week

ACTION: Peter Change the documents to reflect this #2 in 116 change DONE

ACTION: Jeremy Send proof sketch of extension to correspondence theorem with B1 DONE

ACTION: Peter review proof sketch of correspondence with B1 B2 CONTINUED - expected by June 12

ACTION: Jeremy equivalentClass with 4 components and no hamiltonian path CONTINUED - expected by June 12

ACTION: Peter put #349(D) change into S&AS DONE

ACTION: Jeremy to propose response to owlsas-rdfcore-bnodes-restrictions, including new issue and proposal to postpone CONTINUED - expected by June 12

ACTION: DanC and Jeremy to review Sean's text for non-normative inclusion into some OWL document CONTINUED - expected soon

ACTION: PatH to follow-up to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webont-comments/2003May/0003.html CONTINUED, Pat may be waiting for approval

2.0 QA Review of OWL drafts

ACTION: DanC to bring up QA review of OWL Semantics with WG DONE

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webont-comments/2003May/0002.html

Part of W3C process is QA review, with a document saying what should be done. The QA review of our documents says that we should do certain things that don't look very palatable.

ACTION: Sandro Hawke, Evan Wallace - review Jeremy's review of the QA last call so that it can be sent back as a WG review

X.0 Agenda - changes to OWL semantics

Peter PS gave a quick description of a proposed change to the direct semantics to handle annotations. Dan Connolly believes that the changes are technical and limited to places where people probably don't care.

ACTION: Jeremy Carroll - review proposed change to direct semantics that handles annotations better.

Y.0 Agenda - Sean's document

General agreement that the document is useful, and should be put somewhere. A proposal to append it to reference and refer to to it from overview and guide was made and carried.

ACTION: Guus Schreiber - work with Sean to put appendix in Reference ACTION: Mike Smith - write paragraph that points to the appendix for Guide ACTION: Frank - write paragraph that points to the appendix for Overview

Jim Hendler is on the hook to get back to the commentor.

Z.0 Agenda - rdfs:Class vs owl:Class

Lots of discusion on the difference and where it matters.

Test cases

1/ rdfs:Class rdf:type _:x. _:x owl:complementOf owl:Class. is inconsistent in OWL Full.

2/ rdfs:Class rdf:type _:x . _:x owl:intersectionOf _:l . _:l rdf:first rdfs:Class . _:l rdf:rest rdf:nil .

follows from the empty KB in OWL Full but if owl:Class is a subclass of rdfs:Clas then it doesn't, because the comprehension principle for owl:intersectionOf only works on lists of OWL classes.

Dan Connolly mentioned that our response should refer to layering - our design works - we don't have a design that works without an owl:Class.

ACTION: Frank van Harmelen write draft response for the comment on owl:Class vs rdfs:Class ACTION: Pat Hayes write draft response for the comment on owl:Class vs rdfs:Class

3.0 Last Call Comments:

ACTION: JimH to prepare definitive list of LC issues for next telecon DONE in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0410.html

Deferred to next week

Adjourn.

Raw IRC Log:

15:48:09 RRSAgent has joined #webont 15:53:40 baget has joined #webont 15:54:02 baget has joined #webont 15:55:11 jhendler has joined #webont 15:58:03 sandro has joined #webont 15:59:26 SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started 15:59:33 +Sandro 15:59:33 +[UMD] 15:59:40 zakim, [umd] is jimH 15:59:40 +jimH; got it 15:59:53 RRSAgent, pointer? 15:59:53 See http://www.w3.org/2003/06/05-webont-irc#T15-59-53 16:00:19 agenda + 4 Jun http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0019.html 16:00:43 Next Meeting: 2003-06-05, Peter to scribe.
16:00:43 Followed By: 2003-06-12, Charles to scribe. 16:00:52 from previous minutes 16:01:01 so the "tbd" in the agenda is just an oversight? 16:01:05 +Tayeb 16:01:23 tbd is in the "next week" column - but was an oversite 16:01:36 DanC has changed the topic to: 5Jun http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ ; chair: JimH; scribe: PeterPS 16:02:02 zakim, Tayeb is Baget 16:02:02 +Baget; got it 16:02:23 +DanC 16:02:50 + +1.312.063.aaaa 16:02:54 +Tim_Finin 16:03:07 +??P34 16:03:14 zakim, Tim_Finin is JeffHeflin 16:03:14 +JeffHeflin; got it 16:03:29 +Evan_Wallace 16:03:39 zakim, ??p34 is Jeremy 16:03:39 +Jeremy; got it 16:03:44 +[EDS] 16:03:52 +??P35 16:04:00 +??P41 16:04:03 zakim, ??p35 is pfps 16:04:03 +pfps; got it 16:04:11 +[IBM] 16:04:17 zakim, ??p41 is herman 16:04:17 +herman; got it 16:04:19 pfps has joined #webont 16:04:21 FvH has joined #webont 16:04:29 zakim, [ibm] is welty 16:04:29 +welty; got it 16:04:31 -DanC 16:04:36 zakim, who is here? 16:04:36 On the phone I see jimH, Sandro, Baget, +1.312.063.aaaa, JeffHeflin, Jeremy, Evan_Wallace, [EDS], pfps, herman, welty 16:04:38 On IRC I see FvH, pfps, sandro, jimH, baget, RRSAgent, Zakim, DanC, logger 16:04:41 +DanC 16:04:52 jjc has joined #webont 16:04:56 ChrisW has joined #webont 16:05:01 Zakim, who's talking? 16:05:12 jjc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jimH (45%), Sandro (30%), DanC (45%), Evan_Wallace (10%), OPERATOR 19 (24%) 16:05:23 zakim, pfps is pfpsscribe 16:05:23 +pfpsscribe; got it 16:05:39 zakim, [eds] mikeSmith 16:05:39 I don't understand '[eds] mikeSmith', jimH 16:05:45 zakim, [eds] is mikeSmith 16:05:46 +mikeSmith; got it 16:05:47 +??P9 16:06:06 zakim, who is here? 16:06:06 On the phone I see jimH, Sandro, Baget, DanC, +1.312.063.aaaa (muted), JeffHeflin, Jeremy, Evan_Wallace, mikeSmith, pfpsscribe, herman, welty, SeanB 16:06:08 On IRC I see ChrisW, jjc, FvH, pfps, sandro, jimH, baget, RRSAgent, Zakim, DanC, logger 16:06:11 +??P16 16:06:26 - +1.312.063.aaaa 16:06:28 zakim, ChrisW is Lord 16:06:28 sorry, ChrisW, I do not recognize a party named 'ChrisW' 16:06:37 seanb has joined #webont 16:06:52 timfinin has joined #webont 16:07:13 + +1.312.063.aaaa 16:07:23 I'm still here 16:07:41 1.0 Admin 16:07:54 Attendance from above 16:08:00 Zakim, who's on the phone? 16:08:00 On the phone I see jimH, Sandro, Baget, DanC, FrankvH (muted), JeffHeflin, Jeremy, Evan_Wallace, mikeSmith, pfpsscribe, herman, welty, SeanB, TimF 16:08:31 Next telecon 12th, Guus chair, Charles White scribe 16:08:44 Minutes posted, accepted with one important change! 16:09:23 guus has joined #webont 16:09:25 Announcement - test is in last call - congratulations to Jeremy and Jos 16:09:32 +Mike_Dean 16:10:08 +??P48 16:10:38 mdean has joined #webont 16:10:55 Dan - it would be a good idea to include some ``simple'' tests - as points in the sand ? 16:11:43 e.g. from authoring tools, tests that just say "this is a consistent OWL Lite document" 16:11:51 Agenda addition - talk about proposed change to OWL semantics 16:11:57 2.0 Action review 16:12:57 JH implementation feedback DONE 16:13:16 JH and DC keys CONTINUED - should be done in a day or so! 16:13:39 DC publish XML syntax IN PROGRESS - expected to be done by 9 June 16:14:38 JosD has joined #webont 16:15:51 MS and GS proposed changes to Guide and Reference CONTINUED - should be done in a day or so 16:17:05 MS update issue list 5.06 and 5.20 ASSIGNED to DC 16:17:48 Jos de Roo propose a test DONE 16🔞03 Dan Connolly amend agenda to discuss this test 16🔞28 +??P26 16🔞44 Guus propose a definition for class description DONE 16:19:10 Mike Smith to change Guide glossary DONE 16:19:54 Dan Connolly I18N review CONTINUE - expected sometime soon 16:20:10 Jeremy - test for unionOf CONTINUED - expected next week 16:20:31 Peter PS - change semantics for unionOf - DONE 16:20:45 Jeremy Carroll B1 B2 proof sketch - DONE 16:21:04 Peter PS - review proof sketch - CONTINUED - expected by 12 June 16:21:22 ACTION: Jeremy equivalentClass with 4 components and no 16:21:22 hamiltonian path 16:21:26 Jeremy - test for equivalentClass - CONTINUED -expected by 12 June 16:21:46 Peter PS - change to semantics - DONE 16:22:06 Jeremy Carroll - owlsas-rdfcore-bnodes- restrictions - CONTINUED - expected 12 June 16:22:24 Dan Connolly and Jeremy Carroll - review Sean's document 16:22:50 - CONTINUED - expected soon 16:23:19 Document is: http://wonderweb.man.ac.uk/owl/rdf.shtml 16:23:31 Pat Hayes - reply to May/0003 - comment prepared but not sent - CONTINUED, Pat may be waiting for approval 16:23:45 2.0 QA Review 16:23:47 Re: QA Review of owl-semantics 16:23:47 From: Dan Connolly (connolly@w3.org) 16:23:47 Date: Thu, May 01 2003 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webont-comments/2003May/0002.html 16:25:33 DanC - part of W3C process is QA review, with a document saying what should be done 16:25:58 DanC - the QA review of our documents says that we should do certain things that don't look very palatable 16:26:18 DanC - volunteers for talking to QA wanted 16:27:40 some comments about eggs 16:27:57 hth has joined #webont 16:28:22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0158.html 16:28:25 DanC - one comment to be addressed is tagging sections as normative 16:34:13 Has there been a QA review of any other documents, or just AS&S? 16:34:17 DanC - Jeremy has a review of the QA guidelines 16:35:18 +PatH 16:35:41 ACTION - Sandro Hawke, Evan Statton - review Jeremy's response 16:36:26 I'm not sure ChrisW; good question. my reply to their review of S&AS pointed them at other documents. 16:36:39 Agenda - changes to OWL semantics 16:38:43 Peter PS - vague description of proposed change to OWL semantics 16:39:03 ACTION: Jeremy Carroll - review change 16:40:29 DanC - change is technical - 16:41:00 Jeremy Carroll - one test case can come from initial message 16:41:11 Peter PS - another test case is in the message I sent out 16:41:44 ACTION 2 = Jeremy Carroll - review change to S&AS semantics re annotation properties 16:42:16 Agenda - Sean's document 16:42:36 DanC - document was actually readable 16:42:48 DanC - does the doc cover all the bases? 16:44:25 JimH - request for such a document outstanding 16:45:10 DanC - nice document - could be tacked on to Reference or, preferably, Guide 16:45:28 Mike Smith - could be an appendix to Guide 16:46:56 JimH - what if there are other rules? perhaps by other authors? 16:47:14 DanC - we have to stop sometime 16:47:30 JimH - perhaps some other forum will continue 16:47:40 DanC - then that should be somewhere else 16:54:31 PROPOSED: to append it to reference; refer to to it from overview and guide 16:56:28 Proposal carries by consensus 16:57:04 ACTION: Guus - work with Sean to put appendix in Reference 16:57:16 ACITON: Mike Smith - write introduction paragraph for Guide 16:57:47 ACTION: Frank - similar for Overview 16:57:54 FYI, JimH is on the hook to get back to the commentor. 16:58:35 Agenda - rdfs:Class vs owl:Class 16:58:43 DanC - proposed test 16:58:53 [[[ 16:58:53 rdfs:Class rdf:type _:x. 16:58:53 _:x owl:complementOf owl:Class. 16:58:53 as an otest:InconsistencyTest 16:59:00 ]]] -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0031.html 16:59:35 JimH - how can we describe this in a way that is understandable? 17:00:07 q+ 17:00:47 Jos - this can be proved inconsistent in OWL Full 17:05:02 PeterPS - the situation is different in OWL DL - but the question can't be asked in OWL DL 17:06:16 Jeremy - rdfs:subPropertyOf is different in RDF and OWL 17:06:50 PatH - this is different from owl:Class and rdfs:Class 17:08:21 PAT!!!! 17:08:26 PatH - rdfs:Class is not a member of rdfs:Class in OWL Full 17:09:13 DanC - rdfs:Class owl:sameAs owl:Class in OWL Full 17:09:47 Jeremy - rdfs:Class owl:equivalentTo owl:Class in OWL Full 17:10:06 Peter - rdfs:Class owl:sameAs owl:Class does not follow in OWL Full 17:11:39 PatH - motivation - OWL DL and OWL Full are different - in OWL DL owl:Thing is not the universe but it is on OWL Full 17:12:02 (How about owldl:Class) 17:12:11 (for what Pat wants) 17:12:13 q+ 17:12:50 ack jjc 17:12:53 ack guus 17:13:00 ack danc 17:13:00 DanC, you wanted to propose dropping owl:Class in favor of rdfs:Class, to see what breaks 17:13:36 Guus - in OWL Full the class extensions are the same 17:13:47 (I already found out what breaks; support from WG members) 17:14:06 q+ 17:14:26 JimH - what breaks if owl:Class is removed from the documents 17:14:50 q+ 17:15:20 PatH - then OWL DL willl have theorems that are false in RDFS 17:16:59 JimH - given an RDFS document that uses rdfs:Class how can it be used as an OWL DL class 17:17:09 PatH - you have to do some non-trivial work 17🔞33 q+ to mention section 5.4 of S&AS 17🔞48 q+ MikeS 17🔞52 ack jjc 17🔞52 jjc, you wanted to mention section 5.4 of S&AS 17:19:12 Jeremy - a lot of work has to be done in Section 5 of S&AS 17:19:36 ack guus 17:20:23 Guus - what about RDFS docs that don't fit into OWL DL 17:21:01 ack DanC 17:21:01 DanC, you wanted to ask PatH if the owl:Class term is motivated by possible fixes to OWL in the future 17:21:24 Guus - we need owl:Class because of OWL DL 17:22:14 DanC - taking owl:Class out requires lots of work, including semantic layering, so no change 17:22:24 Mike Smith - agree 17:22:43 i.e. so no reopening semantic layering. 17:24:05 q+ 17:27:06 ack mikes 17:27:13 ack josd 17:27:13 ack josd 17:28:23 that would be more intuitive to me... to say that owl:Class rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Class 17:28:41 q+ 17:31:14 gotta go 17:31:17 -welty 17:31:28 Peter PS - if owl:Class is not the same as rdfs:Class - then in OWL Full it does not follow that rdfs:Class belongs to the owl:intersectionOf [rdfs:Class] 17:31:45 ack pfps 17:31:50 bye 17:31:56 timfinin has left #webont 17:32:05 -TimF 17:32:39 DanC - response should refer to layering - our design works - we don't have a design that works without an owl:Class 17:35:08 rdfs:class rdf:type [intersectionOf rdfs:Class] 17:38:28 jim, we're discussing the layering issue. this is bordering on out of order... 17:39:34 JimH - volunteer to write an e-mail to futher this disucssion without opening too much other stuff 17:40:18 bye 17:40:25 -SeanB 17:43:14 oops; my memory of the issues list is somewhat creative... 17:43:38 ACTION: Frank vH write draft response 17:43:50 ACTION: PatH write draft response (also for owl:Class) 17:44:19 consensus http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2002Oct/0022.html doesn't have a diagram; it just expresses the stuff in prose, I guess 17:44:20 -Evan_Wallace 17:44:28 bye 17:44:30 -Jeremy 17:44:37 -mikeSmith 17:44:42 ADJOURN 17:44:43 -FrankvH 17:44:46 -JeffHeflin 17:44:48 -Sandro 17:44:52 -herman 17:44:53 -Baget 17:44:57 -JosD 17:45:00 -Guus

Received on Thursday, 5 June 2003 14:12:24 UTC