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On 30 Sep 2013 21:52, Martin v. L�wis <martin@v.loewis.de> wrote:
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\> Am 30.09.13 13:18, schrieb Donald Stufft:
\> > Well the point we tried to get across in the PEP is that a normal
\> > feature you can typically just install a backport from PyPI to gain
\> > it early. This isin't so much driven by "well it'd be nice for the
\> > stdlib to have X", but "well this is a real and valid pain point
\> > that causes pain for a lot of users".
\>
\> I see it exactly vice versa. A normal new language feature, you \*cannot\*
\> get early from PyPI, e.g. if it's a syntax extension (e.g. the with
\> statement).

It's standard library improvements (like SSL hostname matching) that are relevant to this comparison, rather than the kinds of changes that were barred by the language moratorium.

> OTOH, \*this\* particular feature you can easily get from
\> PyPI - just download and run the PIP installer.
\>
\> > The 2.7 backport was driven by just how painful this particular
\> > pain point can be. I've personally had feedback that in tutorials
\> > at like PyCon or meet ups that easily 1/3 of the time can be spent
\> > in getting users setup with Python, setuptools, and pip.
\>
\> I'm sure there is something that can be done about it. What operating
\> system are people using who have difficulties to set this all up?
\>
\> I see that pip doesn't have a Windows installer on PyPI. That looks
\> like the real culprit to me. I'd be willing to work with you to
\> provide one (that ideally bundles all dependencies).

We'll take you up on that offer. Windows is the main problem, since other platforms offer wget/curl out of the box so bootstrapping is easy by comparison.

>
\> > Obviously you're the delegate for this PEP and it's your final
\> > decision and either way If the PEP is accepted I'll do the
\> > implementation for 3.4.
\>
\> The backporting is the main stumbling block. Otherwise, I'm in favor
\> of the PEP.

My plan now is to split the PEP in two, so the 3.4 changes can be accepted as non-controversial, including the offer of core dev assistance in creating and maintaining a Windows installer for pip to better support earlier versions. The backporting PEP will be deferred, for reconsideration some time in the future after the initial PEP has been implemented.

Regards,
Nick.

>
\> Regards,
\> Martin
\>
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