Astrology and Tibetan Culture (Part Two) (original) (raw)

In November 2003, I attended the Second International Congress on Tibetan Medicine in Washington DC. I had the fortunate opportunity to interview a number of highly learned men on the topic of astrology. [See CURA, issue 28, 15/12/2003, Astrology and Tibetan Culture].

Professor Robert Thurman (New York) is one of the world's leading authorities on Buddhism. He is the Director of Tibet House in New York City, and is professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhist Studies in the Department of Religion at Columbia University.

Dr. Thubten Puntsok (Beijing), professor of Tibetan culture and history at the University of the Nationalities in Beijing, is one of China's foremost experts on Tibetan astrology and medicine. These two erudite gentleman were key speakers at the conference and graciously agreed to be interviewed and to share some of their perceptions on the topic of astrology and Tibetan culture.

Bishop Ignatius Wang (San Francisco), born in Beijing, China, is the first bishop of Chinese ancestry and of Asian background to be appointed in the United States. He was attending a conference of Catholic bishops at the same hotel which hosted the conference on Tibetan medicine. He kindly allowed me to ask him a few questions regarding his views on astrology.

Interview with Professor Robert Thurman

Robert Thurman is a theatrical, loquacious man, with a larger-than-life personality. In his youth he was a Buddhist monk, but left the monastic life for an academic career and family (he is the father of the American movie star Uma Thurman of "Kill Bill" fame).

Q What can you tell us about Tibetan astrology?

A What is surprising about Tibetan astrology is that it is based on a model of the solar system that is different from the modern one, and yet it predicts eclipses with great accuracy. It makes the calendar adjust to the slightly different length of the solar and lunar years. And that is really very remarkable. That is on the astronomy side.

Q Where do you think that knowledge came from?

A Well, Tibetan astrology relates to both Chinese and Indian astrology. India and China both have their own ancient astrological systems. The Indian one has its interaction with the Chaldean Babylonian system .... from very ancient times India was interrelated with them. The Tibetan system is very synthetic. Like everything Tibetan it brings together things from all over; it's very interactive with everything. In spite of Tibet being very isolated in the hills it is really very interactive. About Tibetan astrology itself, like much of astrology, people think it's unreal, that the Moon or Mars or Pluto couldn't have any impact on your life. But the Moon affects tides, menstrual cycles .... the fact that we're interwoven with the motion of the planets and stars, et cetera, with these big bodies that are zooming around, that they would relate to our inner organs, relate to our brains, it's not at all surprising. You know, an atom makes what seems to be a hard surface that you can bang your finger on, and it's only one teeny little electron zipping around a proton, and it's pretty inconceivable how it works, but it does. And astrology is more like that, I think.

Q Dr. Dorjee, speaking from inside the culture, discussed that when a Tibetan child is born, for instance, they would calculate his or her chart and see that when the child reaches certain ages particular circumstances might arise that could be problematic, and the parents would be instructed to perform rituals which would ameliorate or eradicate the negative karma. (see the first part of this paper).

A Right.

Q Now, have you yourself ever seen Tibetan astrology in operation like that?

A To some extent, but not too much, because I lived in the refugee community and they don't have their full social matrix in operation. I used to study with the state astrologer-astronomer of the government in exile. He was my teacher. He was known as the Fat One. People used to come and see him all the time and ask about a business venture, about building a house, about marriage, illness and treatment. The doctor would ask about the course of an illness and when it would be good to start a certain course of medicine and he would always figure something out from looking at the charts, using Indian and Chinese astrology interchangeably, and he was a very trusted advisor by the people. This was a very common thing. So I have seen that, yes.

Q So you have seen people actually in consultation with astrologers.

A Sure, yes.

Q Did you have your chart done by him?

A No I didn't. I don't know why I didn't. I was too busy I suppose, studying. I'm not good about that. I don't consult psychics or astrologers.... I tend not to. People can do it on their own accord. Someone once asked me something about my chart after a talk I gave. But I didn't know the time of my birth. But then a month later I received in the mail a large package of information on my chart which was most interesting, actually. So I probably should do a proper one, it might help me. This chart was computerized. But I thought it was really quite good. It talked about the houses and the planets here and there. It was quite interesting.

Q Okay. I wanted to ask you a little bit about the Kalacakra, which I find quite intriguing. As I understand it (and my knowledge is very limited) it seems to me that the Kalacakra is an eclipse theology which speaks to a kind of alchemical symbolism, which discusses the conjiunctio oppositorum occurring between the male and female principles. So would you say that there is a Hermetic influence here ......?

A Well, yes, there is a lot of alchemy in the Kalacakra as well as astrology and astronomy and God knows what else. It is an amazing document actually, reportedly written in Shambala -- it was actually written in Kashmir, but some people say that Shambala is somewhere in Kashmir or north of Kashmir, but I don't think so. It is the wheel of time and it is making every moment of time, transmuting that into something sacred, something exalted, and every part of the body of Kalacakra symbolizes some aspect of time. In the navel cakra they have all the lunar transits and the lunar mansions, so it's a sort of cosmology, a �cosmic being' sort of structure. There's a good book by Martin Brauen on the Kalacakra which has a lot of information on the geometry. Another good book is by Alex Berzin; you can go to his web site. He is quite learned on this topic. Then there are several books on Tibetan astrology that of course discuss the Kalacakra, which is one of the major sources on Tibetan astrology and the calendar. The calendar, which is composed ot the cycle of years, like the Fire Horse and so on, began when the Kalacakra entered Tibet in the mid 10th century. So, Kalacakra is a really big thing. I love the Kalacakra, too.

Q Yes, it's really fascinating.

A It's very complicated, the whole study itself is really very complicated -- all the yogas and the cakra system.... an amazing cosmology. The Dalai Lama doesn't believe in the prophecy and cosmology aspect of the Kalacakra. He doesn't really like apocalyptic prophecy in general. But he loves the yoga and the mathematics of the Kalacakra.

Q How do you feel about apocalyptic prophecy?

A Well, I do hope there is a major radical planetary change. We certainly could use one because things are such a mess. Now you know that the Buddha himself rejected astrologers and diviners because he didn't want there to develop any priestly relationships with people -- he wanted them to be truth seekers.

Q Was there much astrology during the Buddha's time?

A Sure there was.

Q Of what kind?

A People have always been observing the stars and planets and thinking about their influence on their lives. Buddha himself had had an astrologer-soothsayer come to him when he was a baby and make predictions about him and his life based on the stars and the physical parts of his body. There is a false idea in the West that everything in India was influenced by Mesopotamia but it probably was vise versa. Because India was always the richest area in Eurasia - it was like the California of the ancient world. It is very likely that Mesopotamian astrology was influenced by India. But this is not very well known.

Q Where did you get this idea? Have you read this?

A Well, no, but by looking at the comparative wealth of the different areas, and the amount of people and development in India..... if you have more people you're going to have more ideas - they'll think of more things.

Q Oh, so there are not any texts or sources that demonstrate this......

A No, because the older Indian civilization was wiped out a few thousand years ago, as was Mesopotamia. But Mesopotamia is made out of rock, it's so stony and rocky, and India is built out of brick, so it all got washed away. But the Harappan civilization was amazing. Bigger than anything else at its time, and also female dominated, most likely.

Q I thank you very much for your time.

Interview with Dr. Puntsok

Dr. Thubten Puntsok from the University of the Nationalities in Beijing grew up during the cultural revolution in China. It was decided that he would be trained as an acupuncturist. A family member who was a traditional Tibetan doctor instructed him in Tibetan astrology and medicine. A smiling and friendly man, sporting a long, stylish black leather trench coat, the sociable Dr. Puntsok's English was surprisingly good, in spite of his protestations and concern that he would need a translator. It was enjoyable discussing astrology with him. He showed particular interest in my laptop computer with its CCRS astrology program designed by Mark Pottenger. Dr. Puntsok teaches Tibetan culture and history, and has published his work on Tibetan medicine. His interest lies in Tibetan medicine as a living tradition, not just a cultural relic and artifact.

Q Dr. Puntsok, do you teach Tibetan medicine at the University of the Nationalities?

A Yes. Since last year I teach Tibetan medicine for the bachelors degree and Tibetan history for the masters degree program.

Q Do you teach Tibetan astrology as part of the curriculum?

A Yes, five or six years ago I was teaching Tibetan astrology at our university; then another lady took it over because I am very busy and not always there. This lady studied astrology very well and is now responsible for this course in our curriculum.

Q What is the Chinese view on astrology?

A Is your question "what is the Communist view on astrology or what is the traditional view on astrology?"

Q Both

A I think in ancient times Chinese people were very interested in astrology. They had their own astrology, which appears to be connected to Tibetan astrology, but they are different. Many people don't understand what astrology is. They practice axioms and believe these axioms. Many think this is superstition. So, during and after the cultural revolution people thought this was superstition, but now more people are interested in astrology.

Q The astrology that they are becoming interested in is Chinese, Tibetan or Western astrology? There are so many astrologies, like so many languages of the cosmos; so what astrology do you see the Chinese people becoming interested in?

A Many people don't understand Western astrology. They are more interested in the ancient traditions of astrology, or ancient Tibetan astrology. But in Tibet we use two systems of astrology --skar rtsi (kartsi), byung rtsi (jungtsi). skar rtsi is the astrology of the planets. �byung rtsi is the astrology of the elements. I think astrology of the planets is almost the same as Western astrology.

Q Except in the West astrologers use the tropical zodiac as opposed to the sidereal zodiac used in the Tibetan system. Which brings me to my next question. Have you seen any reform or movement toward change in Tibetan astrology? Here in the West many people are looking to change astrology away from orthodox or superstitious technique, in search of a new understanding of astrology. For instance, is there any scientific research involving astrology and medicine?

A They don't do this very much in China because of the political environment. In Tibet, astrology is used very much by the Tibetan doctor. But the government doesn't like this, but in Tibetan medicine astrology is indispensable. Astrology is always connected with medicine, especially the five elements. Fire, earth, metal, wood and water are always connected with the organs.

Q Can you give me an example of how astrology is integrated into a medical practice? Do you look at a person's date of birth?

A No, no, no. It is used for the harvesting of plants, for instance. What time is better to pick particular plants; which season is good for certain kinds of plants. Also calculations connected with divination. For example, if next year is a sheep year, there may be some kind of disruption with the elements. How to change this problem, which kind of ritual is good for this, so astrology gives us information on how to deal with this.

Q Have you seen this work? Do you see evidence of this being effective?

A Different doctors have different experiences. Usually, I don't use it very much as a doctor. Some doctors do use it very much and have a great deal of experience with astrology. Even for me, I am sometimes surprised by certain predictions. So it depends on the doctor and the doctor's experience. People who have good experience, and have a history of successful use of astrology are different from those who just have knowledge from books.

Q So let me see if I understand this: the doctors don't use an individual horoscope?

A No, they don't.

Q Please forgive me for not knowing the answer to this, but is there a different calendar in use in China? And do you know what day you were born?

A Yes. There is a different calendar, but it can be correlated to the Western calendar. For instance, I was born 7 February, 1955, which equals the Wood-Horse year, 12th month and fifteen days.

Q When you were born, did your parents have your horoscope done?

A No, they didn't.

Q What have you written about Tibetan astrology? Any books or articles? And have they been translated?

A Yes, I have written articles, but they have not been translated. Some are about the history of Tibetan astrology -- the original Tibetan astrology which dates from the oldest culture in Tibet -- about the spar kha (parkha), the twelve animals. These are the oldest, most ancient parts of Tibetan culture, from maybe six or seven thousand years ago. We already have this kind of idea of the twelve year cycle. We have the dog or horse or sheep in this cycle. It tells us about a person's energy or luck increasing or decreasing. For example, this year might be good or lucky, but next year might not be good or lucky.

Q So, have you seen actual examples of this working effectively?

A Yes. And if we had this in a computer it would be much easier to calculate. We don't have computer programs. It can take two or three days to calculate your horoscope. If we had a computer it would take two or three minutes.

Q Yes, over there is my computer (indicating my laptop on a nearby desk). See, it has an astrological program. I can calculate a horoscope in moments. Do you know what time you were born?

A Around that time we didn't have a clock where I was born, but I think around 10 or 11 in the morning.

Q Well, thank you so much for your time, Dr. Puntsok.

Interview with Bishop Ignatius Wang

Bishop Ignatius Wang has a fatherly benevolence which enabled me to approach him as he sat by himself in the lobby of the Hyatt Regency. Since I was taking a sampling of opinions on astrology from the academic , the Communist and the Buddhist worlds, I thougbt it would be interesting to hear what the Catholic take on astrology might be.

Q Bishop Wang, can you please tell us what the Church's view on astrology is?

A Very negative.

Q Is there ever any discussion about astrology?

A No, the topic of astrology has never come up. I don't know why no one ever discusses it...

Q Do you know about Thomas Aquinas' views on astrology -- that he resolved the conflict between the doctrine of astral determinism and the theological doctrine of free will? [See Book Review in De docta astrologia: CURA's Book Review on Laura Smoller's History, Prophecy and the Stars by Shelley Jordan.]

A I did not know this.

Q Yes, Thomas Aquinas acknowledged that the planets exert an influence on the physical world but not on the human soul, so Thomas Aquinas recognized astrology's influence.

A Well, I generally agree with Thomas Aquinas, and if he says this, I'd have to agree with him.

Q What do you think about astrology, Bishop Wang?

A I'm not against it and I'm not for it. I can't really say either way..... to have an opinion you have to know something about a subject. But if you believe in it, it could be very bad -- you could lose your free will and become lazy... if destiny is there, why work hard?

Q Thank you so much for your time, Bishop Wang.