[Python-Dev] setuptools: past, present, future (original) (raw)

Phillip J. Eby pje at telecommunity.com
Sat Apr 22 09:00:32 CEST 2006

At 12:22 AM 4/22/2006 -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:

Why can't you remove the heuristic and screen-scrape info-search code from the easyinstall client and run one spider that would check new/revised PyPI entries, search for missing info, insert it into PyPI when found (and mark the entry eggified), or email the package author or a human search volunteer if it does not find enough?

I actually considered that at one point. After all, I certainly have the technology.

However, I didn't consider it for more than 10 seconds or so. Package authors have no reason to listen to some random guy with a bot -- but they do have reasons to listen to their users, both actual and potential.

The problem isn't fundamentally a technical one, but a social one. You can effect social change through technology, but not by being some random guy with a nagging 'bot.

Hm, can I nominate myself for the QOTF? :)

Seriously, though, posting Cheesecake scores (which include ratings for findability of code, use of distutils, etc.) would be a fine way to achieve the same effect, and if they're part of PyPI itself, they don't give off the same "random guy with a bot" effect. Instead, they are a visible reflection of community standards or values, and influence action through public shame instead of nagging. And shame scales better as the size of a community increases. :)

There are actually additional technical and social reasons why I don't believe the bot approach would work or scale well, even if it was clearly a community effort. For example, doing the work for package authors would effectively mean supporting them forever, since they would never have a reason to learn to do it themselves. But these other reasons rather pale compared to the chicken-and-egg problem that I'd have faced in trying to kick off such an effort without easy_install already having been established with a sizable base of fan(atic)s.

Anyway, it's certainly an attractive idea, and until you brought it up I'd forgotten I had even considered it once. It would be nice if it could work, but I still think adding Cheesecake scores to PyPI would be a better accelerant -- especially because it measures other "qwalitee" factors besides easy_install-ability.

And since Cheesecake actually depends on easy_install to be able to rate documentation and various other aspects of a package (because it actually uses easy_install to find and fetch a package's source code), you're not going to be able to score at all on some factors if you don't make your package findable. Thus, easy_install-ability is a prerequisite to even being able to see how you compare to others.

So... let them eat Cheesecake. :)

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