[Python-Dev] Removing IDLE from the standard library (original) (raw)

Kurt B. Kaiser kbk at shore.net
Mon Jul 12 14:12:10 CEST 2010

On Mon, Jul 12 2010, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 05:20:49 -0400 "Kurt B. Kaiser" <kbk at shore.net> wrote:

I'm mystified about the comments that the GUI is ugly. It is minimal. On XP, it looks exactly like an XP window with a simple menubar. Those who haven't looked at it for awhile may not be aware of the recent advances made by Tk in native look and feel. What is ugly? Ok, I've just tried IDLE (on py3k) for the first time in years. Under Linux, the look is ugly and outdated; it uses some kind of Motif-like widgets.

That's because Linux isn't using Tk 8.5 yet. Debian defaults to Tk 8.5 in experimental since March. Most Linux is Tk 8.4.

On Windows, our installer is using 8.5. Here's a screenshot from my eeePC, 1024 x 600:

http://images.rant.ml1.net/idle.gif

Quoting Tal:

Perhaps, but the point is that these bugs remain. Certainly this isn't because just you, out of the entire Python development community, know little about Tk and Tkinter.

Using Tkinter is a major reason that maintaining and further developing IDLE is difficult. For example, it took me many hours just to get a working Tkinter scrolled frame widget, having had to write it from scratch and struggle with the under-documented Canvas widget. Another example is that integration of the new ttk (a.k.a. Tile) widget set, which supports native look&feel on various platforms and adds modern widgets, has still not been integrated despite being available in Tk for years and despite considerable effort being invested into it.

Tal, you've got some catching up to do, yourself. Tile went into Tk in 8.5, two years ago. Linux is behind, we don't control that, but our Windows installer and tkinter is cutting edge! Thanks, Martin! I don't know what version is running on the Mac:

http://blog.markroseman.com/2007/12/tcltk-85-first.html

I've got an ancient Python 2.5.1 running in Gnome/gNewSense using Tk 8.4. I think you guys are exaggerating. It's not /all/ that ugly, not by a long shot. It's just not native look and feel (yet).

Usability is inconsistent with the rest of the desktop, and looks generally subpar (for example, you have to click on a menu to open it;

On Linux and Windows, f will drop the file menu.

the file open dialog is antiquated and doesn't allow me to use keyboard shortcuts).

Looks much better in 8.5 and the shortcuts work.

http://images.rant.ml1.net/idle2.gif

The editor looks decent, though there doesn't seem to be a simple (e.g. Shift+Tab) way of unindenting a block of code.

Pull down the format menu. The dedent hotkey is Ctrl+[

This possibly could be changed to Shift+Tab by the user, but there may be conflicts with completion.

-- KBK

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