[Python-Dev] The socket HOWTO (original) (raw)

"Martin v. Löwis" martin at v.loewis.de
Sun Jun 5 08:32:38 CEST 2011

-1. I think there should be a Python-oriented introduction to sockets. You may have complaints about the specific wording of the text, but please understand that these are probably irrelevant to most first-time readers of this text. My observation is that people actually don't read the text that much, but instead try to imitate the examples. So what you're saying is that the text is mostly useless (or at least quite dispensable), but you think it's fine that people waste their time trying to read it?

No, that's not what I said. I said the people actually don't read the text, so they won't waste time with it. They only glance at the text, enough to understand the examples.

Some of the people reading our docs are not fluent English readers, and it can be quite an effort for them to read some big chunk of text which will be ultimately pointless.

You completely misunderstood. I didn't say that the reading the text is pointless. I said that people don't read this text, nor any software documentation, in particular when they are not fluent in English.

So if the examples are good (and I think they are, mostly), it's of minor relevance whether the text makes all sense the first time. I'm not sure why the examples are good (for example, modern client code should probably use createconnection() with a host name, not connect()).

I disagree. create_connection is an advanced function - you shouldn't be using it unless you know what it is doing. As a socket tutorial, people do have to know about connect.

Also, really, to socket beginners, I think the primary advice should be: first try to find some high-level library that does the dirty work for you (for example some protocol-specific lib on the client side, or something like Twisted or asyncore on the server side).

No no no no no. Absolutely not. a) telling people who want to learn sockets "don't learn sockets, learn some higher-level library" is besides the point. What do you tell them when they did that, and now come back to learn sockets? b) telling people to use Twisted or asyncore on the server side if they are new to sockets is bad advice. People first have to understand sockets, and then can use these libraries and frameworks. Those libraries aren't made to be black boxes that work even if you don't know how - you have to know how they work inside, or else you can't productively use them.

Not "hey, here's how you write a threaded server in 4 lines of code, and wow, look, you can also write non-blocking code using select() too!".

I'd happily kill the entire non-blocking discussion from the tutorial if it hurts you as much as it hurts me. I wish this non-blocking stuff never went into Python.

Well... in a couple of months, someone will tell them their code doesn't support IPv6 and they'll be lost.

No. In a couple of months, they'll understand sockets much better, so they'll be able to support IPv6 easily.

It's a HOWTO - of course it has advise without justification. Well, I think that's bad. When we give advice to users, we should explain the motivation of the advice given. Otherwise we convey the impression that there's some magic that people shouldn't try to understand.

It's not that bad. Please reconsider. People do get a lot of advise in their lives that isn't motivated down to the root cause, and accept advise from authority. Only if they understand what it does, they ask why.

Regards, Martin

More information about the Python-Dev mailing list