Reinhold Messner | Academy of Achievement (original) (raw)

There are so many firsts in your career. Why do you think you have been so successful doing things that others barely dared attempt?

So many people have died on Nanga Parbat and the other peaks you’ve climbed. Why do you think you survived?

When you were at the base of Mount Everest, preparing for the first solo ascent, what was going through your mind?

When you keep going higher and higher and you’re over 8,000 feet up, what’s it like to breathe in that thin air?

You’ve been called “the king of all climbers” and the most famous mountaineer in the world. What do you think makes you so remarkable?

Reinhold Messner: First of all, I’m not a king, and I would not like to be a king. I’m called “the king of the 8,000-meter” because I climbed them all and a few of them twice. I’m not a special person. I’m a normal person, but I had the opportunity in my life to make many experiences on the edge of the possibilities in the mountains — in Antarctica and Greenland, in the big deserts — and having this opportunity to go in the places where wilderness is still there. And I try to understand what’s happening with our nature. We have a nature in us — if we expose ourselves in the big nature, where it’s danger, where it’s loneliness, where it’s silence — and these feelings, for the normal people, they are gone. So many people are coming to see my museums, to listen to my lectures, to read my books because they hope to get something which they cannot get anymore. In the cities, they have no silence. The time is very, very cut. If I go to Antarctica, time is becoming endless. You know, midland in Antarctica, you have the feeling you are on a different star, on a different world, and time is not anymore existing. Time is only a measurement we invented.

What is it about pushing the limits that attracts you? Is it doing what nobody has ever done before?

Reinhold Messner: No, no, many people are doing this. This is a beautiful sport. Traditional mountaineering is not what’s happening in the gym, with indoor climbing walls. They are on artificial walls. It has nothing to do with traditional alpinism.

Alpinism has a tradition of 250 years, not more. Before we had the mythological time when people did not really go, and there were many stories about gods sitting on the mountains in the Greek philosophy. Also, in India, people have the feeling that Shiva is sitting on a high mountain, a holy mountain. In Tibet, they have holy mountains. This period is gone. Maybe somewhere in East Africa, with the Indios in South America, with the Sherpas in Nepal, with the Tibetans in Tibet, there is still a religious feeling between men — human beings — and the mountains.

But since 250 years, we have mountaineers, and this was beginning with scientists. They came especially from Britain, also from the European cities, to study the mountains. After the illumination (the Enlightenment) and with the beginning of the industrialization, people were open-minded enough, and they had the money to come to the Alps and conquer the Alps. In 1786, the Mont Blanc was conquered, and this is the birthday of traditional alpinism. And from this moment onwards, alpinism is evolving only in one direction: possible or impossible. That’s the question: possible or impossible? And each young generation tried to make possible what the old generation defined impossible.

In 1980, you climbed Mount Everest solo. That’s one of the greatest feats that a human being has ever accomplished. What preparation goes into an achievement like that?

Reinhold Messner: I had preparation for at least 30 years. My first steps, I did as a five-year-old boy in the Dolomites with my father and my mother and my older brother, climbing the first 3,000-meter peak, let’s say 10,000 feet — a climbing mountain but not a difficult one, an easy one. It’s the first step for the know-how I have today — also for the overview I have today. And in the first 15 years, I was climbing at home on smaller walls. But my capacity, my power, my agility, my knowledge was growing year by year, and I was doing always something more difficult. I tried to overcome the limit of yesterday, and next day, again overcome the limit of — my limit. There are two limits. There’s my limit, and this is changing. In young years, the limit is growing, growing, growing, and afterwards, up to a certain age, the limit is getting down. Today I can never again do what I did for 15 years.

Did you always know that you would be able to achieve what you have done?

Reinhold Messner: I could not know when I started that I could do it, but I knew 17 years past, so we have new equipment, we have a bigger knowledge because knowledge is growing with all alpinists together. We put our experiences together, our knowledge together. Also, if I don’t know certain alpinists, I get information from them, so knowledge is growing. Also now, I’m not putting in any knowledge anymore, but my son is today on a difficult wall in Switzerland, and he will put some new knowledge in because he’s one small part — millions of people are going to bring knowledge and know-how together for the next generations.

You’ve said that your son is out climbing today as we sit here. Don’t you worry about his safety?

Reinhold Messner: He’s not yet 30, he’s 27. But anyway, he’s mature. He’s doing his life. I was much more emotionally involved when he was 16, 17, when he was beginning to climb. He began very late, and he was not even so much into climbing because he had a few problems. It was the abyss and so on. Now he’s climbing on a very high level, but danger is there. But if I would steal him this possibility, as the father telling, “You should not do it,” I know exactly this is so dangerous. He could not do his life. When I was 16 — my brother was 14 — we were beginning to do extreme climbing, very young. And at three o’clock in the morning, we started at home. Our mother made us breakfast, and we put the rope and the pitons, and we went. And she never said, “Don’t do it. This is dangerous.”

Don’t you think that’s remarkable?

Reinhold Messner: That’s very remarkable because she was full of fear. But she also knew that if we would not do it, if we would be forced to leave this enthusiasm for climbing, we could never become strong characters. It’s not possible. You need the freedom to do what you like to do. And in this case, it’s very difficult for a mother, especially. In these circumstances, I have also to say that what we are doing is very egotistical, and we cannot take the responsibility in front of our parents, in front of our brothers, and so on. But if somebody is doing it, this is his fault or her fault, not mine.

Was there something in how you grew up or something your parents did that gave you this ambition to go beyond normal limits?

Reinhold Messner: No, not either, myself. I was only going in very small steps — every weekend, a little bit more higher, a little bit more difficult. And up to the age of 22, 23, 24, with the clear view, “I’m doing what the people of yesterday could not do.” In ‘68, I did my most difficult climb in the Dolomites, and for more than ten years, nobody could repeat it. So somebody thought it’s not possible to see past there, impossible that somebody pass there. And I was very proud because I said, “Okay, the climbs stopped on my limit now.” But after ten years, with new shoes, with better training, with new knowledge, people did it. And now this is a difficult passage, we call it, but it’s one of the passages.

George Mallory said he tried to climb Everest “because it’s there.” Why do you climb?

Reinhold Messner: This is an answer for one man for one mountain. Mallory went on Everest in ’21 and they did not either really try. But he was the key figure in this expedition. He found the route. He went up to 7,000 meters to the north wall and he could see this is possible. The ridge afterwards is possible. But he did not know if the summit ridge is possible, and he wrote in ’24 to his wife, before dying, “I will do it this time if, on the summit ridge, there is no vertical step which is stopping me,” which happened later on. Exactly this happened later.

Mallory went the second time on Everest in ’22 when they really were prepared to do the summit. And this British expedition was very focused on reaching the summit because Brits had to hide something. They tried many times on the north wall and failed. But the Brits were the leading conquerors of the world, not only for the colonies, but also for summits and so on. And they tried to go to the South Pole first. They tried many times. And on the end, a Norwegian man did it — Amundsen — and Scott came too late, one month too late.

Now the Brits changed Mount Everest from a mountain to “the third pole.” They called it, “This is the third pole,” to prove that they are able to reach first one pole. And in ’24, they tried a third time, and Mallory was in America before going to the third expedition, and a journalist asked him, “Why are you going the third time on Everest? You did it. You failed once. You failed the second time. Why do you go a third time?” And he answered, “Because it’s there.”

Some people say you are the greatest mountaineer of all time.

Reinhold Messner: No, no, no, no, no. There will be great mountaineers again.

But you’ve had enormous success.

Reinhold Messner: I had success. I did a lot of adventures. And especially, I did it in many fields. I was a rock climber. I was an alpine climber. I was an altitude climber. I did the traverse of Antarctica, a fact that we could not do. I crossed also Greenland a long way and then many, many things.

But not everything you tried succeeded.

Reinhold Messner: Right, I failed many times.

So when did you know it was time to turn back?

Reinhold Messner: One-third of my big adventures failed. Normally, I have a good feeling to see something is not functioning: the path is not good enough; the weather is not allowing; I am not in perfect shape, and so on.

Is it instinct again?

Reinhold Messner: It’s instinct, yeah. It’s more instinct. It’s not coming from pure knowledge or calculation. There’s no calculation.

You get a feeling?

Reinhold Messner: I get a feeling: “Now we are on the edge. We should go back in our situation.” I am not every day in the same shape over every year.

There was a decade when so many people had died on the 8,000-meter that people said the chances were high that you would die.

Reinhold Messner: And this was very interesting that 8,000-meter climbing was successful in the ‘50s and the beginning of the ‘60s. Then famous climbers went to the Himalayas with national expeditions paid by the nations, paid by the alpine clubs, and they did the first ascents. And all the nations where they had climbers tried to do the 8,000-meter peaks.

So the first ones were French people. And the French people, after the Second World War, were the leading climbers worldwide. So they did also the first 8,000-meter peak. The second 8,000-meter peak was done by the British (English) — and the English, they had the biggest experience. And they were forced to do it because the Swiss people tried it; they went very high. So they got a permit, and they knew, “This time we have to do it, otherwise we lose our reputation.” The next one was an Austrian, again an alpine climber, Hermann Buhl at Nanga Parbat. Afterwards, we had again British, French again, Americans on Gasherbrum I, Chinese on the last one because it was in Tibet. They didn’t give a permit to foreigners or they did it by themselves. The Japanese did an 8,000-meter peak. And these were the nations. They had history before the Second World War.

In the ‘70s, the whole thing changed. In the beginning of the ‘70s, my generation went to do the difficult routes, not anymore the summits. We reached on the end the summit, but the summit was only the end. We tried to do the most difficult routes.

But during this time, mathematically speaking, if you climbed 8,000-meter peaks ten times, you were just about guaranteed to die.

Reinhold Messner: Yeah. For me, the guarantee to die was 99 percent. I had to die. But I am the exception. I was lucky. I was prepared. I had this opportunity to learn in my young years and so on.

Some people might say, “That’s crazy.”

Reinhold Messner: No, that’s not crazy. I was very well organized in my things. I am an exceptional worker, not only a risk taker. And I was not in competition with anybody. Many people died because they were in competition. For example, the Polish climbers, the Czech climbers — not the Russians — the Russians could go on their own mountains in Crimea and the Khinjan. But the Polish, the Czechs, the Hungarians, they could not go. The Slovenians. They were in these communist systems. They could not go to the 8,000-meter peaks. When they could go, they went in so high-risk. More than 80 percent of the leading Polish climbers of the ‘80s died on the high peaks — also Kukuczka, the best one, died. And now again the Slovenians are the best climbers of the world. This small country, there is between them a hard competition, and they had not a chance to express themselves in the great years, in the ‘50s and the ‘60s, beginning of the ‘70s, when I had my opportunity.

Do you feel an adrenaline rush after a big successful climb?

Reinhold Messner: The adrenaline is stronger when you start, not in the end. In the end, you’re calming down, especially if something has happened. If nothing has happened, everything is running after your plan, which you started to prepare years before.

In ’78, in May, after Everest, being back in Katmandu, capital of Nepal, I went to the government to ask for a solo permit on Everest. And they said, “No chance. It’s forbidden.” I cannot get a permit. Afterwards, I went to China — to Beijing — to ask the Chinese because Everest is a border mountain, to get the permit, and they give me immediately a permit to go. It was costly, but anyway, I got the permit. And I had more than two years to prepare mentally for Everest alone. And in these two years, no day passed without thinking a moment what I do when, what I take with me, which route I will exactly go.

Generally, before going, I know where, generally, I go. In detail, I do it from the base camp with binoculars, without binoculars. And afterwards, step-by-step, but these are the very small details. And on Everest, searching for the route, for the way, is easier than in the Dolomites because in the Dolomites you have vertical walls, and you can’t see from below — especially in early winter — with the binoculars. There’s a little bit of snow. Where there’s a little bit of snow, there’s a hold. But in detail, you cannot say if you’re really able to hold yourself on this small hold. So you have a general route in your mind. It’s like a picture in your mind. And you know, during climbing, where you are now in the route, which is here. You are in reality and here. This should match perfectly. And so you know now you have to go to the right, on the right side. But how you handle it in the next minutes or hours — sometimes you need hours for five meters.

Early in your career, you lost some of your toes, is that right? How many toes?

Reinhold Messner: Seven, partly.

I think some people would have stopped then. Why did you keep going?

Reinhold Messner: Because I had the possibility to go further, and I understood quite quickly when in high altitude, the shoes are so heavy and so isolated that I can go also quite well without those. I did more than 100 expeditions without these seven toes. I did only two expeditions before going to the big mountains.

Does it hurt?

Reinhold Messner: It hurts sometimes, a little bit. It’s part of my life, like I have this nose; I have no toes — or missing seven toes. Not totally missing them — some are totally gone — the left foot, only one toe is left. And on the other one, parts are cut off. So for rock climbing, I need different shoes.

If it wasn’t competition with somebody else, what was the drive that made you do something where you had a 99 percent chance of dying?

Reinhold Messner: The knowledge that life is great if you go further to invent something and to do it. This is the key. This is the key that generates my life. One key is that I am fighting to be a self-sufficient person who can do what he likes. I don’t like anybody around me telling me, “You should not do this and you should do this. And you should go down there.”

What do you feel at the top of Mount Everest? There are billions of people on Earth, and for one moment, when you are on top of the world, five miles up, you’re the only one up there. You’re literally higher than all of us. Can you tell us what kind of feeling you have at that moment?

Reinhold Messner: Nothing. You have the feeling you are going in, in a situation. I sat down and I was very tired. Sitting and resting, and after a while, I had the power to get up for going down. This was all. The big emotions are coming when you go back to life, when you hear the first water running. Up there is no running water.

What does it feel like when you come back from the mountaintop? What are the emotions?

Reinhold Messner: You come back to life, to be alive. Up there you are so exposed. You’re on the limit of exposure, to less oxygen. It’s very cold. No water. You have to make water. There’s snow — okay, ice. You can make water. Food is not so important. But coming back, you have the warmth of the sun. The sun is warm down there. Up there, the sun is not giving energy. You have people around you. You have birds around you. You have insects around you. You are in the middle of the life. And this is the strong moment. And this moment is like to be reborn. But in this case, not your mother gives you life — but you, by yourself, you’ve conquered your life back. You went in an area — in a world — which is not made for human beings, and you feel it every second. This is not made for us. But if you come back to the place which is made for human beings, you are reborn, and you have totally life before you. And with all your fantasy and energy, you start the next project, for having again this feeling of being reborn.

But if you do something your whole lifetime, normally it is becoming boring because after a while you know how to handle it. So after the 8,000-meter peaks, I decided, okay, that’s enough now. I would not like to repeat myself once more and once more, and look how the people are clapping if I climb one more 8,000-meter peak. I decided to do something new. And I was totally unable to handle this new thing, and I had to learn. The best part is always the beginning. The beginning and maybe after one or two years, when you are able to handle it, you can understand the problems. And you can begin to go above what was done before you — to go in unknown areas.

One of the things you’ve done that’s so fascinating is your search for the Yeti.

Reinhold Messner: First of all, you have to understand that the Yeti is a legend. The Yeti story is a legend. And in Asia, where this legend was growing and taught from generation to generation, it’s a legend. It was living in the north foothill of the Himalayas. And on certain places, the people went from the north to the south, and with the people came also the legend from the north to the south. And the local people are not calling this strange being — this big beast or whatever you call it — “Yeti.” The word “Yeti” is an invention of a British journalist. He put a few words together, and he came home and said, “In Himalaya, there’s a Yeti. This Yeti is the snowman.” So the people are thinking he’s a man, a hairy man, the snowman. But this is all wrong.

And I could brief that proof, that the Yeti legend is still existing, and many people in the Himalayas heard about it, while none of them have seen ever this beast, this creature. And this is all of it. But there is an animal, which is the base of this Yeti figure. We call it Yeti figure, but they call it different. And I did the book, how I found out and how I did. Now American genetic specialists, they proved it genetically that this special bear — it’s a special bear — is the base of this legend. And around this bear, they told stories a little bit differently. But I found, in the eastern part of the Himalayas and in the western part, where there are totally different cultures and languages and religions, the same story. So we know it was once in the whole Himalayas.

When you saw this bear, what did it look like?

Reinhold Messner: I have seen it very late in the evening, not in the dark. I could still see something. And I could not say afterwards, after seeing it, this was a bear because it was in the woods, and I was searching for the route. And I could see this creature, which disappeared immediately, and only when I could see the footprints because it was standing in the mud, maybe 20 meters in front of me, not so far, and he disappeared in the dark woods. And I could see in the mud the footprints, and I remember immediately the footprints I have seen from (Eric) Shipton on snow. And so I said, “That’s the same footprints.” And from this moment on, I was searching, and I was searching for ten years to have the clear answer. Before, if somebody’s reading my books, I say in one of my books, “The Yeti story is the pure invention. Maybe a mother, for giving a goodnight story to the children, invented the story.” But afterwards, I understood that it’s a real being, which is the base for the legend.

This animal is only around in the night. During the day, you can never see it. So in the night, what do you see? A beast going on two legs. On the snow, you see only he’s crossing the Himalayas on snow passes, 6,000 meters high. Only this animal can do this. And he is going on the snow that you see only the back foot. Why? He’s going, he or she, and putting the foot on the snow. And if the snow is firm, no crevasses below, instinctively this animal knows, “Okay, this is firm.” He puts the back foot exactly in the forefoot for being safe. So you see the footprints of a giant — big footprints. But you see not the front foot of a bear because the front foot of a bear, you see immediately that it’s a bear. But the back foot is like the human foot. So you see in the snow the footprints of a giant.

Genetically, he had to learn because if the bears, for 100,000 years, made a mistake, and they would fall in crevasses, they could not survive. They had no children. They had only the bears they were. They learned, they had children, and genetically, slowly, slowly, it became part of the bear’s knowledge, instinct of the bears, to know the mistakes and to put exactly proof. And afterwards, he can put the other foot, which has all the weight.

Which was more difficult, crossing the Gobi Desert or crossing Antarctica?

Reinhold Messner: Antarctica is more difficult because in Antarctica you need a lot of stuff. There is nothing. You cannot buy anything. In Gobi Desert, there are living some people, not everywhere. This is part of the logistics that you study before, where these nomads are living. So the nomads are giving you water. Nomads are always very great-hearted. They give away everything. All the nomads — I was a nomad for them. I was coming with my rucksack and sleeping there. None of the nomads in Mongolia and in the Gobi Desert put me out of their yurta, of their houses. They’re not having houses. They are just round closed houses, perfect houses. And I could sleep there. I could eat with them. They give me water. And I knew every time I find a yurta, a clan — 20 people, normally, with their goats and their horses — I can find help and I can find food and water.

Let’s talk about these beautiful museums you’ve built. How long did it take?

Reinhold Messner: For 15 years, I was doing these museums. I was inventing them. My family was absolutely against it because they were worrying that I’ll lose all my money and all my property. And after a while, I understood I can handle it. On the beginning, I did not know. And I was beginning this thing with my own castle. I bought it more than 30 years ago. There I made a museum, a very simple thing, to see how a museum would function. I am not a museum director. I am not a specialist. But I was doing it in practice to see how it would function.

After seeing this would probably function, it should also function economically. It means if I don’t get the money in which I need to bring this up, I have to close it. We are one of the unique museums, between Hamburg and Napoli, not getting any subventions. We do it freely, which means free market. And when I was beginning this big museum, these six houses, I invited three chief directors of museums: one from Munich, one from Zurich, one from Roma. And we made a brainstorm. I told them this is my project, and they said, “You are crazy. No chance. This is a province, a small province — much less people. And you cannot make six houses. If you do it with your own money, do one house with six stores. You need one ticketing, one group for cleaning; you need one telephone lady, and so on. But if you have six museums, we will never handle it.”

Why did you have to do six at once?

Reinhold Messner: I had decided to make a center. We are here in the center. Here is the whole bureaucratic part. And five satellites around, where I put special issues, special themes, like rock, ice, holy mountains, mountain people, and traditional alpinism. And I put all these museums in places where nature outside is combined with the theme I have inside. So all the mountains outside are part of my museums. I stole them. I stole beautiful mountains. And this is the success we have.

What do you think about the development of mountain tourism — on Everest, for example?

You know what’s happening today. They prepare Everest for tourists. They make up a piste. It’s tourism. Okay, I’m not criticizing it. More than 100 Sherpas in the springtime go to Mount Everest. No tourists are there, so no clients. And they prepare from the base to the summit a piste, with ropes left and right that you cannot lose your way, with bridges on the crevasses, with ladders on vertical pieces. In the camps are doctors, cooks, helpers, oxygen bottles. Up to the summit, there’s a rope there. You can hold yourself with special machinery. And part of these climbers are going with the Sherpa. The Sherpa is carrying the oxygen, and they have a tube, and they are using the oxygen. And in this way, Everest is becoming a trekking mountain.

You served a term in the European Parliament. Which is harder, politics or climbing mountains?

Reinhold Messner: Politics is a totally different thing. Politics is the art of persuasion, the art of compromise. In a democracy, if you are not able to compromise, democracy is impossible.

Are you a good compromiser?

Reinhold Messner: As a politician, yes. But mountaineering is a totally different thing. We are two people. We are alone. We are three people. And there you need decisions. But our system is a basic democratic decision process. In reality, we are behaving like anarchists. You know that “anarchism,” if you translate the word from the Greek language, from the old Greek language, means only “No power to nobody.” And this is the perfect democracy: No power to nobody. So nobody has power to dictate to the lower people and not to the upper people. They are all on the same level. But this is only possible in very small communities. Only small communities are functioning in this way, in this anarchistic way. Big communities, it’s not possible. You need rules. And it seems that our democracy, especially with the American president, is not any more functioning. He’s not voted by the people. He’s doing what he wants. He’s not working with the parliaments. He’s not having the same system like Putin or like the Chinese. But probably, we will follow the vertical democracy in the future — which is not anymore a democracy — with a few people deciding and the others are following.

You’re almost 74, but you look about 50. How is that possible given the amazing, punishing feats that you’ve accomplished — walking across Antarctica, walking across Greenland? Why do you think you look so young?

Reinhold Messner: I think I look quite young because I have still a lot of hair, and because I have still the possibility and the energy to follow my dreams. It’s a kitschy word, but in the meanwhile, I know that looking backwards to your successes is boring. Hopefully also in five years, hopefully also in 15 years, if I’m still alive, the art of living stays in realizing — step-by-step, now and here — your dreams.

Gelungenes leben in German. Leben is “life” and “successful” — “it was successful.” This is the boring thing. But the success realized in this moment makes you forget everything. Also, the question: Why are we here? What is the sense of us? Because what I did is totally useless for human beings, totally useless. But it was for me the most — it was infinitely full of sense because I give the sense. Nobody else. No God, no religion, no priest, no Pope gave me the sense. I have to find the sense every time. And it’s very easy if you have projects, if you have ideas, and you are trying to fulfill them. For this, I try — just 35-40 — to give away all the bureaucratic work. I’m not doing it. I would kill the bureaucrats if they block my stuff. It happened many times.

I have a secretary, and she’s doing all my bureaucratic work. I call her if we have a problem with a film matter, for example, to go further with financing. I call her only: “We still have enough money in the bank to do this?” And she says yes or no, and I do or not, very simple. But I am not looking to any accounts, and I’m not interested at all how many money I have in the bank, what is costing this or that. I’m only trying to realize my ideas.

Whenever you do one of these extreme adventures, like traveling across Antarctica, do you learn something about life?

Reinhold Messner: Yes. I wrote a book when I was having my 70th birthday — I published it on my 70th birthday — with the title About Life. It’s not about climbing; it’s about life. And there, I have 70 chapters where I tell what I learned doing these expeditions — these climbs — for life, generally. And I begin, and I say, “Everything is in our genes — all the rules. And we cannot escape them.” But in the normal life, being part of seven-and-a-half billion people, this is not anymore functioning. We are not functioning following our own rules. We are functioning following the rules of the politicians and the religions. But if I go out of this world, if I put me freely in a totally different situation, where no other people are going and where I am by myself with a few friends, with a few local people maybe, I have the possibility to know about these human rules, given us by hundred thousands of years in the genetic chain. We have it in the genetic chain.

By 1980, you were already the most famous mountaineer in the world. Why did you keep climbing?

Reinhold Messner: Because it’s absurd. It’s absolutely absurd. “Absurd” is an international word. In German, we say absurd, in Italian, assurdo. This is a very important philosophy. You know Camus, the French writer. He was writing a story about Sisyphus.

The life of Sisyphus is typical of an absurd life — a mythological life, naturally. And on the film they made on my life, La mia vita, on my life, I told them to begin with one sentence of the Sisyphus of Camus, and also the end. And the first thing is that — I don’t mean all in all the sense — I think you should also read it in French for having exactly the philosophy. But he’s saying, more or less, there’s no sense to go up and down a mountain, rolling up a stone, and the stone is rolling down, and rolling it up again. But on the end, he’s saying in his book — it’s a small book — but you should imagine Sisyphus as a happy person.

So this made you happy?

Reinhold Messner: Yeah. Life is absurd. There is no doubt. Because we don’t know what’s happening. We have a certain period of possibilities to stay on Earth and to express ourselves and to enjoy life, whatever — not enjoy or enjoy life — but anyway, what’s afterwards, this is unknown.

Are you a happy person?

Reinhold Messner: Most of the time, yes, especially if I have the possibility, without any bureaucracy, without any people around me that try to stop me to do what I am forced to do and what I like to do. At the moment, I am living my seventh life. I was beginning it not yesterday — a year ago, more or less. And in the seventh life, I am trying to take in my hand the narrative — you know the word “narrative” — of the relationship between men and mountains; men — human beings — and mountains.

My interest is here, on one side, is human nature. In us are all the rules, genetically put in, which are important for let surviving the single person and let surviving the whole humanity. In reality, we do not need any rules. All religion rules are invented by human beings. All gods are invented by human beings. This is proven. There is no god which is not invented by human beings. But this is not telling that there is no energy above our possibility to think, to see, to touch.

How do you keep the mental map of the mountain in your head when you’re going into thinner and thinner air where it’s harder to think?

Reinhold Messner: Only if you are a climber being able also — being asleep — to handle it.

How do you sleep when you’re climbing a mountain?

Reinhold Messner: In Everest, I slept in a tent — a small tent. I give the order to a factory to make my tent very light.

How cold is it?

Reinhold Messner: We have a sleeping bag. It’s cold. We are not sleeping up there. We sleep a little bit. We wake up, we sleep a few minutes, we wake up. And it’s important to keep yourself quiet, like meditating, to keep yourself quiet.

Are you a good meditator?

Reinhold Messner: I think so because my view is also that action and meditation is the same. Action with full concentration, with forgetting everything else, only becoming the next step, becoming the next hold, becoming the summit — this is the same like meditation. And if you say it as a mathematic — mathematic is the highest philosophy — possibility. You know what is a vector. If you put one vector in this direction, this is meditation. The other vector on the opposite side becomes action. For normal people, it’s exactly opposite. And if you let them go with velocity infinite, they meet again because the whole thing is a circle.

Milarepa, the Tibetan poet, is one of the people that you often quote. And one of the things he’s famous for saying is: “When you run after your thoughts, you’re like a dog chasing a stick. Instead, be like a lion, who, rather than chasing after the stick, turns to face the thrower.” What did you like about that?

Reinhold Messner: I like generally Milarepa because he was able just — not in young years; he had difficult young years. But on the end, he accepted that life is absurd, and he was living in these caves in the Himalayas. This is true. This is not fiction. He was really existing, and his writings are still existing, and we can read them. And he was like Bob Dylan, I would say, more or less, because he was a songwriter, and he was singing himself these songs. But he had no public. And this is different from Bob Dylan. He was singing by himself in a cave in the Himalayas — or in front of a cave in the Himalayas.

Do you think people should spend more time alone?

Reinhold Messner: Yes. People should stay alone for a while. They should stay in silence. They should stay in infinite rooms, like deserts, to be prepared for the life after death.

Do you like to be alone?

Reinhold Messner: I think that going in alone in a desert is going like in what is happening after our being on this earth. We have a certain period. Each of us has a certain period on this earth. And afterwards, we are disappearing from here. But we will not have anymore. Everything will be aufgelöst (dissolved).

After life.

Reinhold Messner: With the death.

It’s not the end.

Reinhold Messner: It’s not the end. It’s exactly the opposite. This is the infinite in time. But infinite and zero is the same. This is a game. Infinite and zero is not a difference. It’s the same. So our time is becoming zero or infinite.

How does it help to prepare for that?

Reinhold Messner: And it’s totally silence. To go, you go alone in the Gobi Desert. Yeah, listen.

It seems like you’re interested in Tibetan spirituality, Buddhism. You have Tibetan prayer flags here.

Reinhold Messner: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do you believe in God?

Reinhold Messner: No.

What do you believe in?

Reinhold Messner: I respect what is above our capacities. We are human beings and we are human beings because we have not divine capacities. I told you before that all gods are invented.

But you’ve been up and seen some of the most gorgeous things.

Reinhold Messner: That’s enough for me — these gorgeous mountains, these gorgeous areas. That’s enough for me to respect the nature as a divine dimension. But above this, we don’t know anything. But religions were invented — do you say it like this? — more or less three-and-a-half thousand years ago because it was necessary. The groups of people became so big that it was not anymore possible to handle them — only with their own inner nature.

So Moses, for example: Moses went up to Sinai — I went also up to see — and he found these stone plates with the ten rules. And he brought the rules down and said, “I was up there, and God gave me these rules.” And afterwards, he said, “And no one of you Israelis go up there. That’s forbidden. Don’t go up there.” Because otherwise, going up, they could see that up there, there is nothing. There’s only his invention — very simple. That’s the proof. And it’s very important that in the Bible, it’s written he’s telling the people, “No one is going up there. It’s forbidden.” He was very clever.

You’ve said, “The wonderful things in life are the things you do, not the things you have.” Could you talk about that?

Reinhold Messner: Yeah, having things is boring. I told you before, I have no idea what I have. This museum, I built up, and it was the making, the inventing, the building, the working on it —for 15 years, I worked on it. And when it was finished, just on the last one, my daughter — she studied art history and economics — she helped me to finish it, to do it, the installation. You know, to put a picture here and there. And it’s a very difficult museum, done by Zaha Hadid, a famous architect. She was helping, and at the end, I said, “Now you understand, more or less, how I was doing these things. If you like, you can have it.” But no, it’s a responsibility. To have it is not important. It’s a responsibility.

What are you going to devote this next chapter of your life to?

Reinhold Messner: I’m doing these films. I’m a storyteller, using words and books, using my words on the stage. Yesterday evening, I had here a talk around the fire — beautiful — all this to communicate. I’m sitting near a fire, 500 people around, and I tell them a few stories, actual stories. And afterwards, they have the possibility to put in questions. So small children and old people, everyone is putting in these questions, and this is the first type of communication of adventurers. Adventurers 50,000 years ago, in the Stone Age, they came home from a hunt, for example, and they told to the others what happened, sitting near the fire and eating the meat they brought.

There’s this image of Reinhold Messner as the romantic solo adventurer…

Reinhold Messner: No, no, no. I am going sometimes as a solo but not many times. I prefer to go with partners or with a partner — ladies.

But you like to be alone.

Reinhold Messner: But not forever, from time to time.

And then last night you had 500 people around the fire.

Reinhold Messner: Yes, I had also thousands, yesterday morning. I was in Zurich to do a lecture before a thousand people. It’s a different kind of communication. Doing these lectures, where I’m on stage alone and I tell my vision on motivation or whatever, I’m like a teacher in a class. But I tell to the people in the beginning, “Don’t take home any of my experiences. Don’t use them. This is too dangerous. These are my experiences. I can give you my experiences.”

If you build a hotel, if you have hotel people, with the system I built my museum, you will surely go bankrupt. I was able, in this case, to act between this, between being bankrupt and success, and it was a very fine knife line. Like on the Nanga Parbat solo climb, I put in all my money, all my time, all my enthusiasm, all my knowledge, risking to die quite quickly — going on the edge. But I succeeded. I came back again, and it was a great success. I could sell a book. I could sell some lectures. And with this money, again, I did something.

On the end, when I finished with these adventures because I became too old, I still had the knowledge how to handle, to sell my — not the primary work. The primary work, I do for nothing. I was never paid for an expedition. But I was able, selling the second products — like a book, like a lecture — to auto-finance my expeditions. I was not dependent on an alpine club, not on the state. I had never to go to a politician to say, “I need money because I would like to do a great deal in Antarctica.” I was free in my doings, and for this, I needed money. And I needed more and more money in my life because my projects became bigger and bigger. And this is the profound fact of it.

And many climbers, they are envious against me because they see how I handled my life — that after one life, I found another opportunity, another motivation. I found another possibility to express myself. And I had always also the money. I could never go to a bank and say, “I would like to cross Greenland the long way. Please give me $100,000. I need them for starting.” They would say, “You are crazy. How are you guaranteeing that the money is coming back? You will disappear up there.”

You’ve had the most exceptional life. For other people who hope to be exceptional, what would you tell them?

Reinhold Messner: To start with the feet on the ground and not say to be exceptional. I am not exceptional. I am a totally normal man, but I was freely following my dreams.

What’s the most fun you have these days?

Reinhold Messner: Enjoying the ideas which come. Three days ago, I sat together with somebody. He told me a story, and immediately, I know, too, this is a story for a film. It’s lying on the street. I don’t know if I have time to realize it. I put down a few words to remember exactly what is this. And I put, in the meanwhile, just a few papers together which I found about this story. It’s a mountain story. It’s a great mountain story. It happened between 1902 and 1918 — end of the First World War — because it has to do with the war, mountains and war, and climbing.

So you’re saying the fun is the next challenge?

Reinhold Messner: The fun is to find a next goal, a next challenge. I wrote once — but this is too pathetic — “If I don’t have any more ideas, I’ll kill myself.” But I’m sure that I will have ideas up to the end of my life. Probably I will not have, on the end of my life, the life to do this and this, and I will leave some projects for others.

What is so powerful about ideas?

Reinhold Messner: Because it’s the only thing we are able to let go of things in us — if an idea is becoming our idea, if we are identifying 100 percent with the idea, if the idea is part of us. So it’s the motor to give us the energy, the happiness, the joy of realizing it. If we are only doing something which others are telling us we should do, we are only helping them to fulfill their idea.

Here in Europe, people have seen you on TV because you’ve been the face of all kinds of products like milk or sports equipment. People know you. What’s it like to be famous?

Reinhold Messner: Being famous has two sides. You are exposed. It’s more difficult to live. And you have also some help because if I go to somebody to get a passport in Italy, probably I can get it quicker. And this being famous means if I write a book, I sell more books than others without this fame. This also helps. But the rest is also a big chest on your shoulders. Today especially, everybody is coming to do a selfie and photographs, and if I’m working and being concentrated, I cannot either speak with people because I’m thinking of what I’m doing.

In 100 years, how would you like to be remembered?

Reinhold Messner: I have no wish to be remembered. I will be remembered, I know it. I’m leaving 50 books, at least. Some of these books will be interesting in 10 or 20 years. I don’t think that all my books are understood today. And the museum is not speaking about myself. I use my knowledge to speak about —generally — about traditional mountaineering, about what’s happening if men and mountains are meeting. I would like to have, at least during my lifetime, the narrative of mountaineering in my hands. And I think we have it.