[CSSWG] Minutes Telecon 2013-05-30 from fantasai on 2013-05-30 (www-style@w3.org from May 2013) (original) (raw)

Summary:

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Present: Glenn Adams Rossen Atanassov Tab Atkins David Baron Tantek �elik Elika Etemad Simon Fraser Sylvain Galineau Daniel Glazman Rebecca Hauck Brad Kemper Philippe Le H�garet Alexis Menard Edward O'Connor Anton Prowse Matt Rakow Simon Sapin Dirk Schulze Alan Stearns Leif Arne Storset Nick Van den Bleeken Steve Zilles

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0710.html Regrets: Bert, jerenkrantz, sylvaing Scribe: Anton

Adminstrative

glazou: extra items? krit: new WD css-masking? glazou: ??

plh: Renaming of css-variables? What's the story? Is the expectation to rename everything in the draft? glazou: it's dash-1 because it's the first level of the module glazou: the number doesn't indicate a "level of CSS". It's the level of a spec. fantasai: We want to switch from naming using level of CSS, to a system using "level of module". fantasai: css3-flexbox should have been css1-flexbox dbaron: transforms has renamed to CSS Transforms Level 1 dbaron: just the shortname doesn't match yet fonts should be level 3 because there were font properties in levels 1 and 2 transforms being level 3 is a mistake fantasai: we decided to move the number to /after/ the module name, to avoid readers' confusion about whether it's the level of CSS that's indicated or the level of the module fantasai: We set up dev.w3.org first, to test it out fantasai: probably at some point we'll hand over a rewrite config to the webmasters for /TR shortnames fantasai: We will shift the dated URLs as we go along.

CSS Masking

Zakim: ??P82 is me https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html krit: Would like to publish updated WD TabAtkins: I'm fine with that. fantasai: I'd like issue of "having a shorthand to turn everything off" to be noted in the spec, but I'm otherwise fine fantasai: in order to turn of masking, you currently need to know all three systems of masking. (The shorthand 'mask' can only be used to turn of one set of things.) fantasai: I'd like to investigate the idea of having a more general simple switch fantasai: I'd like to have mask:none turn off all of the masking everywhere, so that it's easy to turn off masking no matter how many different masking features we add to the spec. fantasai: I think that was one of my comments that I sent to the list. fantasai: I'd like to have a note about the issue in the spec RESOLVED: Publish a new WD of css-masking

Animations and non-interactive media

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/thread.html#msg650 dbaron: Spec doesn't say what should happen to animations when they print dbaron: 1) Consensus towards: when printing, pretend the animation wasn't there dbaron: but there were some concerns about that dbaron: 2) Some people wanted an option for "print exactly what I see on my screen right now" dbaron: and then there was some third options. dbaron: I just committed a change to Gecko, for ignoring animations when printing

TabAtkins: I understand the comments about wanting "screen capture", but in the general case we should ignore the animations. It'll work for most cases. Might be bad on certain badly-designed pages. Not sure TabAtkins: Question on mailing list about paused animations is interesting. krit: Cannot sync animations. Not easy to determine what to print TabAtkins: If author can control a global pause, problem goes away krit: But there is no global pause

There may are also a11y guidelines/impacts on animations, being able to pause, slow or rewind them. There may be some WAI guidelines on printing animations - probably worth checking. Molly beat me to it :) krit: Some animations are really hard to time, if you don't have a global timing function (Which we currently don't).

cabanier: it's reasonable that animations that are in not started but have fill-mode have their first frame honored cabanier: this is for animations that have fill-mode: backwards cabanier: should be easy to implement

glazou: Ignoring the animation makes more sense. The other options are too hard at the moment. Rossen: the way we print animated gifs or video, you would actually print the current frame or whatever Rossen: I'm not saying it's a precedent we have to follow, but there is relevant situation there.

glazou: Could this be controlled from CSS? Eg a property about how animations should print TabAtkins: User print stylesheet, turn off animations? dbaron: If there's a right value for the static case, then authors will want to put the value in for UAs which don't support animations * fantasai agrees we should use the fallback values

TabAtkins: Is there an implementation issue with snapshotting the animation at "some point close" to the time the button was pressed? krit: Can depend on the implementation itself, communication between UI and engine who wants that? glazou: The print button in the chrome, or the print button in the dialog TabAtkins: The last one. dbaron: We could do that if we did more work, to have printing CSS code know how to copy an animation timeline from elsewhere TabAtkins: I thought the printing code just snapshotted the page um, no. TabAtkins: Hmm perhaps this is more complicated than I first thought.

glazou: Most reasonable option is to ignore anims. Could we say that we /may/ change it in future? dbaron: Sounds good to me dbaron: we might even say that implementations are allowed to do something else if they want to do something more snapshotty krit: and future specs can say more about how to do that. glazou: So minimal expectation is that animations are allowed to be ignored, and implementations are allowed to do better if they want and we might spec how to do that in future maybe s/do better/snapshot in some way/ ? Correction: Minimal expectation is that animations for non-interactive media are ignored, but implementations are allowed to not ignore them and we might spec how to do that in future so a page with animations will print differently in the future? fantasai: We don't want to imply that snapshotting is necessarily better. TabAtkins: Snapshotting takes more work than ignoring, it wasn't a question of what's better or not. http://www.paulrhayes.com/experiments/clock/#clock TabAtkins: I'd like to print the frame that's there when you print, in that example glazou: No glazou: In print media, the animation might be there, and there might not even be a screen to "see" the anim RESOLVED: Minimal expectation is that animations for non-interactive media are ignored, but implementations are allowed to not ignore them and we might spec how to do that in future

MediaQueries: Parsing Media Types

TOPIC: 'not', 'only' and 'and' as Media types http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/0794.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/0955.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0658.html SimonSapin: I'm in favour of blacklisting these words as media types TabAtkins: I'd prefer to whitelist the types we have, and never let new ones be added TabAtkins: Media types were a horrible mistake TabAtkins: The only type which makes sense these days is print, which could have been a media query +1 dbaron: The media types capture a set of binary characteristics. (paginated? Really small?). Media queries are better at handling such binary characteristics TabAtkins: Agree. dbaron: We actually agreed on a plan to add such characteristics to media queries. Florian had an action? dbaron: I agree with TabAtkins that the plan should be to not add anything in the future dbaron: But it's a more limited change to just ban the specific few words agreed. media types were unfortunately dated.

dbaron: Anyone recall the error handling rules? ??: Unknown media types evaluate to false dbaron: "screen, projecton" and misspelt projection? What do we throw away? glazou: I think we currently keep screen. dbaron: I would like to include 'or' in the discussion of these few words "Unknown media types evaluate to false. Effectively, they are treated identically to known media types that do not match the media type of the device." RESOLVED: 'not', 'only', 'and', 'or' are invalid media types

CSS3 Backgrounds

Topic: background-attachment: local http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0516.html fantasai: Proposal is to clarify/change the spec to say that the background positioning area for scrollable elements with background-attachment:local is the area which scrolls and not the scroll frame. smfr: I just posted to the mailing list smfr: Scrollable area is not well defined smfr: Eg shadows affecting scrollbars etc fantasai: That's equally true for body content, btw so it's not specific to this issue smfr: What about background-origin fantasai: would pretend the scrollable area has a border with the specified border size. Best I can come up with. I didn't catch fantasai's conclusion there 0 0 would position negatively, effectively, by that amount smfr disusses background layers and perf and things dbaron: Can have multiple bg layers, in any order fantasai: Why does this affect positioning? We're not changing the attachment behaviour here, just positioning smfr: currently bg is not scrolled with content fantasai: We're not changing anything about that fantasai, we're complaining about the background-attachment: local in its entirety fantasai: It moves when you scroll, that's the definition TabAtkins: We're just discussing an edge case: canvas fantasai: feature already exists and is in spec; we're discussion how you calculate the image positions

fantasai: I'll propose wording which takes care of interaction with other bg properties fantasai: That scrollable area is not defined is a general problem.

??: <... status ...> fantasai: There are still a handful of open issues in the spec, mostly minor, but still need fixing.

glazou: Are we OK with the proposal? smfr: I'm OK with it RESOLVED: background images are positioned to the scrollable area for background-attachment:local "do what http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0516.html says" :-)

TOPIC: Color of ridge/groove/inset/outset border styles? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0529.html glazou: We have no definition of how to do these things!! fantasai: Defer to level 4 glazou: Then please mark it as an issue smfr: Ties in with 'lighter' and 'darker' colour functions that we've discussed before. dbaron: ridge and groove might have web-compat requirement that don't match what we'd like to do with lighter and darker

smfr: I think we changed ridge and groove last year, and we haven't had any feedback FWIW, Gecko's implementation of 3-D border colors is http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/base/nsCSSColorUtils.cpp#40

Variables for Media Queries

Topic: DRYing up Media Queries http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0638.html glazou: Wide discussion on mailing list about this TabAtkins: Boils down to fact that we do want to do something similar to the suggestion, but not right now. glazou: I'm using Media Queries a lot for responsive design support in BlueGriffon

CSS Syntax

SimonSapin: Most is editorial SimonSapin: Two issues to discuss here [css-syntax] At-rules mixed in any declaration list? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0506.html glazou: Do we have everything ready in the OM for this proposal? TabAtkins: A few of these rule types will need to sprout child rule attributes, but that's about it SimonSapin: Answer: no we don't SimonSapin: Would like to do change in error handling as soon as possible glazou: Do we all agree with SimonSapin's proposal? RESOLVED: Accept SimonSapin's proposal I'm fine with the proposal -- reasonable to implement -- there's an off chance it could break something, and if it does, we'll find out. SimonSapin: syntax3 already behaves in this way... should be backport to CSS21 and CSS Style Attribute TabAtkins: yes glazou: So this will override CSS21? we have levels, not versions :-D glazou: Let's discuss in upcoming F2F, because I'd like Bert's input

[CSS21][css-syntax] EOF in string and URL tokens http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0664.html SimonSapin: Next issue glazou: My own parser makes it valid SimonSapin: So does syntax3 dbaron: If a definition of variable terminates at EOF in the middle of a string, does the close quote that's implies get included in the variable value? dbaron: I'm not crazy about this closing thing var-foo: foo("blah glazou: If EOF happens there, is it still valid? dbaron: Should it also contain a closing ) ?? Interesting question glazou: This is a F2F topic!

glazou, third issue, if we have time: [css3-values] Syntax of attribute values for attr() http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0652.html

TabAtkins: I'll be asking for FPWD of syntax at F2F! Please be prepared!! I'm not sure I'm going to be able to review syntax by that deadline.

Outline Properties

TOPIC: Principles behind the outline properties http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0668.html dbaron: I don't think this needs meeting time right now, but pls read message and respond! glazou: This is related to bounding box etc; makes a good F2F topic

Meeting closed.

Received on Thursday, 30 May 2013 21:57:07 UTC