Fakes & Frauds : Kobyashevite Grown in Garage?? (original) (raw)

Fakes & FraudsKobyashevite Grown in Garage??

With the discussions about the new blue hemimorphite I was hearing in Denver there was a common acceptance that some if not all of the kobyashevite were fakes. Is there documentation of this somewhere?

18th Sep 2020 08:10 UTCHerwig Pelckmans

Hi Stan,

Have a look at this thread:

Cheers, Herwig

ACAM & MKA (Belgium)

21st Sep 2020 04:18 UTCPu Tzu (2)

I too came here looking for info on

kobyashevite

I have all the info I need on blue hemimorphite...I've heard people claiming the

kobyashevite is fake, and still looking for sources on the info.

22nd Sep 2020 16:56 UTCStan Perry

Hello Herwig, Its been a long time since we have seen each other. Thank you for the information. I actually found the best confirmation on the Spanish language Friends of Mineralogy site. Jordi Fabre directed me there.

"Don't miss the enlightening thread on the Spanish FMF: Rumores sobre las kobyashevitas de la Mina Ojuela
If you use the translator at the top left of every page you can read it in English language "

Pretty convincing description of what was going on.

22nd Sep 2020 19:55 UTCDan Polhemus

I actually saw a few of the Ojuela “kobyashevite” specimens for sale at the recent Denver show, as well as some of the “blue hemimorphites”, but their asking prices were beyond my means, and at least in the case of the latter they just didn't look right. Over the past ten years I have accumulated a modestly good collection of various minerals from the Ojuela, so it was surprising to me that suddenly these new things were coming out of nowhere at a deposit that has been worked for 500 years. If they really are fakes, as it seems that probably are, then it is very sad, because it casts a shadow over the reputation of what is still one of the all time great and classic localities.

It seems perhaps a sign of our times that the folks at Mapimi cannot be content with continuing to bring to market all manner of excellent wulfenite, mimetite, rosacite, conichalcite, malachite, azurite, aurichalcite, brochantite, baryte, calcite, hemimorphite, plattnerite, carminite, tsumcorite, adamite, paradamite, legrandite, hydrozincite, fluorite, smithsonite, mottramite and other specimens, which collectors new and old will happily continue to acquire. Instead, they feel compelled to present new, unusual, more spectacular, and potentially even non-existent minerals to satisfy the market. At least at this point I do not feel like I missed out on anything, and there is still a consistent stream of legitimate and very beautiful minerals coming from the Mina de Ojuela, which I will continue partake of. Caveat emptor, I guess.

22nd Sep 2020 22:47 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

The case against it is strong enough that we've removed all photos of the stuff purportedly from Ojuela from the public galleries.

23rd Sep 2020 05:03 UTCClosed Account 🌟

One is still the head photo of kobyashevite.

Cheers,

Branko

6th Oct 2020 18:06 UTCJean Louis Dupuy

Jolyon, don't be as quick as the fake news, deleting all the data makes you approve of the gossip of a few, trust the science, please don't do like all those crappy journalists about covid, "post mining" you know what that means and in your opinion how much "post mining" minerals will you withdraw from mindat? leave time to time ...

23rd Sep 2020 06:09 UTCHerwig Pelckmans

Good catch, Branko!

Indeed, even though this page mentions there is only one photo of kobyashevite , it does show two photos; the one on the left being the "illegal" one:

Cheers, Herwig

ACAM & MKA (Belgium)

6th Oct 2020 17:47 UTCJean Louis Dupuy

Hello, here is the answer of the recognize US dealer who sold me specimens :

Hi Jean. We read the same thing. It seems this discussion has been going on for over a year. We have been following it too. These are Post Mining but not man-made. We buy ours from a guy who has traveled to Mexico buying specimens for about 50 years. Post Mining is when the ground water leaches in and coats the Calcites over years and then the Selenite Crystals grow on them. There are some people down there trying to replicate the process. Ours are all legit and all purchased only from our one contact. The same guy who supplies other dealers in the US. They are legitimate.

6th Oct 2020 21:00 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Jean Louis Dupuy ✉️

These are Post Mining but not man-made.

7th Oct 2020 07:38 UTCJean Louis Dupuy

Funny question, since when the buyer must provide proof of the origin of his purchase, I gave the answer of the seller very well known in the US, now I have for my part no reason to believe that he is lying, to the more he gave me an answer which apparently does not suit you, also I give you his name, you will have all the time to communicate with him for the details which you judge necessary, and there it will not be low-level gossip; David Wixom from Teresa Rocks

7th Oct 2020 17:47 UTCJean Louis Dupuy

Here is a good exemple, if man could make this, man is super .

7th Oct 2020 02:37 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager

So that test was a single xl.

RRUFF: "The identification of this mineral has been confirmed only by single crystal X-ray diffraction" .

It would perhaps be good to see / compare the test results of:

"Samples analyzed by Dr. John Rakovan at Miami University – Ohio campus.has shown that the blue hemimorphite from Ojuela Mine, Mapimi, Durango Mexico (appeared on the market in September) has been dyed with the organic dye Phthalocyanine".

7th Oct 2020 07:13 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

RRUFF confirming the crystallographical makeup of something doesn't confirm it is natural.

7th Oct 2020 07:40 UTCJean Louis Dupuy

Not the same mineral,

do not put everything in the same basket

7th Oct 2020 07:45 UTCJean Louis Dupuy

Of course, but I don't think the lab spends money to analyze fakes, howewer,

the spectra are very, or even too identical to the pure product....

7th Oct 2020 09:40 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

that generic statement on the RRUFF site that,

"The identification of this mineral has been confirmed only by single crystal X-ray diffraction"

is not a confirmation that any given sample is natural or not, but simply that the unknown material structurally corresponds to, in this case, triclinic Cu5(SO4)2(OH)6·4H2O, which mineralogically would be kobyashevite. The statement makes no assertion, pro or con, that any measured material is natural. It also indicates that no chemical analysis was done on the material.

And the assertion that lab doesn't spend money to analyze fakes is not a supporting argument. Excluding the specimens specifically culled from the UofA mineral museum for analysis (I assume most of these are real as most are decades or more old and so have stood the test of time, although age isn't isn't necessarily a guarantee of authenticity), the lab gets its samples from the same place everyone else gets their samples from... from collectors and dealers. And just as collectors expect in good faith that material they buy is natural (or even when natural, that it is correctly identified), so does the lab. But both dealers and collectors have been duped in the past, so specimens donated to RRUFF for analysis would be as real or as fake as the general market is for equivalent material. Obvious fakes are no doubt quickly ascertained and rejected, but clever fakes, especially those supplied unwittingly by honest dealers and collectors who have long supplied good specimens but were themselves duped, probably occasionally get through.

I take no personal stance on whether the Ojuela kobyashevite is real or fake. I don't own any, I have never previously seen it for sale, and I must embarrassingly admit I'd never even heard of it prior to these recents threads on the mineral and the concurrent blue hemimorphite. I must say, though, that a concurrent verified fake (the blue hemomorphite) does not strengthen kobyashevite's standing... what's that old expression... "once a cheater, always a cheater"? In any case, appealing to the RRUFF data is not a valid argument, pro or con, in this case... the statement is just a tag, not an authenticity certificate.

7th Oct 2020 09:59 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

So, I ask again.

You want us to believe these are natural.

Based on the PROVEN cheating done by the locals there, this is not something that can be taken on trust.

How do you intend to authenticate their natural origin?

7th Oct 2020 18:26 UTCJean Louis Dupuy

YOU wrote in Kobyashevite Fakes:

It is very easy to grow specimens artificially using copper sulphate solution to attack existing calcite crystals. Specimens sold from Ojuela mine, Mexico in recent years are highly likely to be manufactured in such a way

Is it true ? yes you wrote this, remember that, to attack calcite crystals , solution must be acid and calcite dissolves , how could you explain that calcite crystals are intact below the Kobyashevite and Gypsum, i do cleaning one (and loose it for kobyashevite) of my specimen with a gun (karcher), and calcite crystals are intact , if you want pics , tell me, i have

i'm a chemist, please put Ca CO3 in a solution of Cu SO4 , and try to have as result

Cu5(SO4)2(OH)6 · 4H2O , if you have this , contact me for Nobel price

7th Oct 2020 19:27 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

We don't know how these have been created. There's a chance they could be natural. There's also a chance they could be artificial.

Let's be fair and say there's a 50% chance either way. I still wouldn't want to invest my money in buying one.

Unfortunately, even if these are genuine, the release of these coinciding relatively closely with the release of the faked hemimorphites means that buyer confidence has fallen close to zero.

It would be irresponsible for us not to raise the issue and to warn people that there is a good chance these are faked.

12th Nov 2020 01:28 UTCShacara Pearce

So I am new to learning about all the specimens I’ve collected over the years, I was doing some reading up on kobyashevite (that I acquired from the Denver show this year) to learn more and came across this. I will be highly mad if the one I purchased is fake, can anyone give me details about how to find out please?

12th Nov 2020 02:13 UTCDoug Daniels

Jean

I've done your suggested experiment a few times in the past (waayyy past, like in the Paleocene). What I saw was a green compound, which I assumed was malachite; no extensive analysis done. Certainly didn't look like the photos above.

7th Oct 2020 17:56 UTCJean Louis Dupuy

you base your affirmations on rumors and you accept that the spaniards emit rumors about this mineral, in short you only live on rumors, what do you do for a living, rumor merchant

11th Jan 2021 15:59 UTCJon Hellmers

We are a Gem and Mineral dealer and carry quite a few pieces of this Kobyashevite. The pieces were bought direct from Mexico and are in fact tested and confirmed by analysis. They can very a little in the amount of Copper per specimen but are legitimate. As they are tested to the original Russian specimens.

12th Aug 2024 23:14 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

Jon Hellmers ✉️

The pieces were bought direct from Mexico and are in fact tested and confirmed by analysis.

The claimed country of origin is irrelevant, because fakes can be made anywhere, and then transported anywhere.

And of course the analytical data 'supports authenticity' because the natural and fake/synthetic material have the same chemical composition. If I grow a diamond in a lab somewhere then transport it to Antarctica, I do not have a natural diamond from Antarctica, even though chemical analysis will show it to be a diamond.

12th Aug 2024 23:03 UTCDANA HASELTON

3 years later...I bought this last weekend in Buena Vista, CO. Man is from Las Vegas, NM. Originally from Durango area in MX. How will I know?

Sorry, cell phone photo.

12th Aug 2024 23:11 UTCDANA HASELTON

Cell phone photos often screw up the colors. This is more true

12th Aug 2024 23:11 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

Definitely one of the synthetics/fakes.

12th Aug 2024 23:17 UTCDANA HASELTON

Thank you. What tells you that?

13th Aug 2024 00:30 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

Experience. I've been a collector for nearly 50 years, a mineral dealer for half as long and have looked at many many many many minerals. I'm also a (retired) chemist with an interest in fakes and synthetics.

13th Aug 2024 01:15 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

DANA HASELTON ✉️

What tells you that?

Everything in the messages (that say these are fakes) on this page, as well as the non-Mindat linked pages.

13th Aug 2024 03:11 UTCDANA HASELTON

I feel honored to have purchased my first fake. Will hold an honored place in my collection.

The seller has no idea. He just sells rocks from Mexico. Nice guy.

26th Sep 2024 14:53 UTCRolf Egberink

Despite this already being a 4 year old discussion I wonder if there are any new insights, because I see specimens recently being sold on the European market again I would like to inform people correctly. This specimen I bought in 2022 on a Dutch mineral fair (as an example, knowing it is synthetic).

This one differs from a lot of others I have seen though, because there is still a lot matrix visible without the coverage of kobyashevite and gypsum.

Despite it being 'fake' I think it is valuable to place pictures on Mindat, but of course stating that it is fake. More and more people use Mindat as their go-to database and in that way they can be informed of what they bought.