Improving Mindat.org : Probably incorrect namesake information for tiemannite (original) (raw)
The namesake for tiemannite is currently listed by Mindat and the Handbook of Mineralogy as after Johann Karl Wilhelm Ferdinand Tiemann. However, Naumann published the phase under the name "tiemannit" in 1855, when Johann Tiemann was only 7 years old. It's not just that I doubt that a 7 year old discovered a new mercury mineral, but that there is another note that the mineral was discovered in 1828, 20 years before Johann was born. I don't know who an alternative candidate is, but I don't think Johann Karl Wilhelm Ferdinand Tiemann is the correct namesake. Below is the current name entry on Mindat:
"Named after Johann Carl Wilhelm Ferdinand Tiemann (10 June 1848, Rübeland, Kingdom of Hanover (now Germany) - 14 November 1899, Merano, Austria-Hungary (now Italy)), „Hütteneleve auf der Zorge“, and chemist in Berlin who had found the mineral in 1828. However, J.K.L. Zincken already mentioned "Quecksilberselen" in 1825."
Emphasis mine.
Can anyone clear this up?
17th Apr 2023 11:49 UTCEddy Vervloet Manager
Good one, Chris...
to start, here is the Naumann work:
on page 301 he only mentiones 'Tiemann', no first name, not even a letter. 1829 btw.
German wiki mentiones him as 'W. Tiemann'...
17th Apr 2023 18:20 UTCChris Emproto Expert
Thanks for the lead, Joachim. I found this website with one of Wilhelm Albrecht Tiemann's published works, and in the description of the book it mentions that Wilhelm Albrecht (1774-1841) was the one who discovered Tiemannite. I can't tell exactly where that person got that information, unfortunately, but that would seem to make sense.
18th Apr 2023 15:42 UTCJohan Kjellman Expert
Chris Emproto ✉️
I found this website with one of Wilhelm Albrecht Tiemann's published works
what website - can you supply a link?
18th Apr 2023 15:06 UTCEddy Vervloet Manager
I added a note to the mineral page. Please do tell if you would find more precise info!
18th Apr 2023 15:37 UTCEd Clopton 🌟 Expert
Paging Gabriel Plattes . . . .
18th Apr 2023 18:10 UTCHelmut Dobler
I think, the mineral is named after the father of Johann Karl Wilhelm Ferdinand Tiemann, born in 1848. His father William died in 1870. So he should have been Hütteneleve W. Tiemann in 1828.
19th Apr 2023 00:47 UTCGabriel Plattes
Yes, sah, Clopton! - late be I to the party... :) I can add this, by the wonderful Carl Hintze, HANDBUCH DER MINERALOGIE, I. I. p. 708, to the discussion:
Earliest work on the substance by Rose (1824) and Marx (1828). The material analysed by Marx had been provided to him by W. Tiemann, which Tiemann had discovered in an abandoned mine at Zorge.
Yada yada yada.
Naumann named the substance in honour of Tiemann, as the original discoverer of the natural specimens of Selenquecksilber, in 1855.
19th Apr 2023 01:02 UTCGabriel Plattes
Marx's seminal article on the substance, from the Journ. Chem. Phys. 1828, may be found at this link. See p. 223 sqq. On p. 224 he describes the letter he received from W. Tiemann, an ex school-pal, and current 'Huetteneleven auf der Zorge', with regards the substance he'd found and provided to Marx for analysis.
[Ah, schweppes! Johan had already popped it up, for perusal! Well, never mind, here is a duplicate.]
19th Apr 2023 01:30 UTCGabriel Plattes
A bit of added fun! An ownership-inscription in MS. on the front free endpaper of a copy of David Kellner's Kurtz abgefastes sehr nuetz= und erbauliches Berg= und Saltzwercks=Buch... Nordhausen, 1702. I assume it was by our man, not the youngster. :) No, not our man... [Nah, yeah, our man. :)]
19th Apr 2023 04:08 UTCGabriel Plattes
From a book-dealer:
Nürnberg , im Vlg. d. Raspenschen Buchhandlung 1801. - 8°. XL, 646 (2) S. Mit gest. Titelvign. u. 7 mehrf. gefalt. Kupfertaf. Pbd. d. Zt. Mit farb. Rückensch. Kanten u. Ecken leicht beriet., sonst in gutem Zustand. Selten! - Wilhelm Albrecht Tiemann (1774 - 1841) ist der Entdecker des nach ihm benannten seltenen Minerals"Tiemannits", der es im Jahre 1828 auf einer alten verlassenen Grube bei Zorge/Harz fand. Gewicht in Gramm: 1000 [Attributes: Hard Cover]
Bookseller: Antiquariat Burgverlag'
'Wilhelm Albrecht Tiemann (1774-1841), the discoverer of the named-after-him rare mineral "Tiemannite", which he discovered in an abandoned mine at Zorge, in the Harz...'
Wilhelm Albrecht Tiemann wrote a fair bit on the metallurgy of iron. Now to find a reference confirming the dates of his birth and death - a bio... Is he in the German dictionary of biography? (nah).
----
He wrote:
* Bemerkungen und Versuche ueber das Eisen... Braunschweig, 1799.
* Systematische Eisenhuettenkunde... Nuernberg, Raspe, 1801. (foreword dated: 'Zorge, am Harz, im November 1800.').
* & Abhandlung ueber die Foermerei und Giesserei auf Eisenhuetten... Nuernberg, Raspe, 1803.
Those same birth, & death-dates are found spattered across the internet. Whilst I've not found the original source for them, I would assume that it is correct. He was a mine official, metallurgist, & author, at Zorge, in the Harz. b1774, d1841.
19th Apr 2023 12:52 UTCJohan Kjellman Expert
Helmut Dobler ✉️
This must be a wrong information. A man, born in 1774 cannot be "Hütteneleve"=trainee in 1828 !
I agree. It must be his son, William (dead 1870), he is the father (V.) in the following reference:
19th Apr 2023 17:16 UTCJohan Kjellman Expert
Gabriel Plattes 🌟 ✉️
not our man...
after all, it actually seems to be 'our man'....
19th Apr 2023 06:27 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
Off-topic, but imagine how much historical and literary confusion could have been avoided if Europeans had never started the stupid custom of referring to people by their surname plus an initial, and used full names instead. We started out, centuries ago, having only given names. Then, ostensibly to avoid homonymic confusion, surnames were added. Until our ancestors decided to go back to confusion by using only the family name and dropping the given names. Doesn't make much sense, but here we are. So I give thanks to all those Mindat data uploaders who add literature references with the authors' full names instead of initials.
19th Apr 2023 20:56 UTCGabriel Plattes
Hot damn... True, Johan, that is rather old to be a trainee (especially also considering that he'd writ at least three works on the metallurgy of iron at this stage). Clever man-Dobler. These Tiemanns are proper trouble makers. ;)
It surely has to be William Tiemann (it ain't the other two, & it fits proper), d1870, mining official of the Harz. In 1828 he was 'Huetteneleven auf der Zorge'; & in 1847 he was Huettenschreiber at the Ruebelander Huette (Braunschweigisches Adress=Buch fuer das Jahr 1847. p. 62 [ta, Johan]). [Zorge & Ruebeland are both Harz, no?]
20th Apr 2023 11:43 UTCJohan Kjellman Expert
OK - as I see it now
we have two Tiemann candidates:
the father Wilhelm Albrecht Tiemann (1774 - 1841)
the son William Tiemann (xxxx-1870)
With the information at hand, anyone of them could have provided the material in 1828.
But with Marx's reference to it being one of his former students it must (?) be the son.
MARX, Carl Michael.(1794 – 1864) could hardly have been the teacher of Wilhelm Albert
Thus on the mineral-page the namesake is still not sorted!!
or did I oversee anything in the postings?