[Python-3000] Support for PEP 3131 (original) (raw)

Stargaming stargaming at gmail.com
Sat May 12 20:12:38 CEST 2007

Guillaume Proux schrieb:

Dear all, [snip]

In this respect, I strongly believe that support non-ASCII identifiers as proposed by PEP3131 would improve a number of things: - discussion and uptake of python in "non-ascii" countries

While still separating them from ascii-countries. They would start writing programs that expose foreign-phrased APIs but we would deny using them because we couldn't even type a single word!

- ability for children to learn programming in their own language (I started programming at 7 years old and would have been very disturbed if I could not use my own language to type in programs)

AFAIK, allowing non-ascii identifiers would still not translate python. They would still have to struggle with every part of python that is builtin, i.e. builtins (you could let non-ascii identifiers reference them, though) and keywords. Better come up with some proposal to translate python (perhaps PyPy could do something here?) or all python-scripts (I think a translator could do its job here) to improve the situation.

- increase of the number of new "interesting" packages from non-ascii countries

As stated above, we could not use them though. Bad deal, if you ask me!

- ability for local programmers and local companies to provide "bridges" between international (english) APIs and local APIs.

I don't get the improvement offered by this one. We should allow non-ascii identifiers to require wrappers?

- Increase the number of python users (from 7 to 77 years old)

Works in English, too.

In my humble opinion, now that UTF8 is accepted as the standard source code encoding, it is very difficult to understand why we should start putting restrictions on the kind of identifiers that are used (which would force people to comment line by line as they do now!).

No, we do not restrict them, we simply do not allow them (what is a huge difference here). UTF-8 will be allowed (and enforced by default) as a file encoding, i.e. strings and comments will be affected. I don't see the real restriction here. Correct me please, if I'm wrong.

When I am programming in Python, I am VERY DISTURBED when the code I write contains much comment. It needs to be readable just by glancing at it.

OTOH, I cannot glance at japanese code and know what it means. So, better the japanese developer named it badly but explained it than requiring me to consult a dictionary.

However, for most of the people who are core python developers, you should ask what is the typical reading speed for "ascii" characters for a e.g. standard Japanese pupil. You would be very surprised how slow that is. In my opinion (after leaving in Japan for quite a bit), people are very slow to read ASCII characters and this definitely restrain their programming productivity and expressiveness.

See above, at least my reading speed for japanese text tends to zero (if not less!).

Of course, for things like "standard libraries", I think that self-regulation and project based regulation will impose ASCII charsets for the base libraries and APIs but i really believe that letting people use their own charset to express themself will REALLY give them the productivity boost they would deserve from python.

They're free to express their thoughts in comments, today, still separating them from ascii-developers.

Let me know if you have any question. Regards, Guillaume

I do not think allowing people to program in their language would enhance integration. It would just split the python community even more. I like communicating with non-native English speakers much more than not communicating with them at all because they got their own language in there. Additionally, I think the reason for rejection of this PEP is the same one that applied to all those "Let the user extend Python's grammar at runtime" -- one developer would have to learn a completely new language for understanding a program. To communicate, we just have to find (or agree on) a common point between devs. Python is English, that's a matter of fact IMO. It is the common language that makes us a community and one language.

I'm, well, -1 on this (even though I don't know if I got a voice here).

-- Greetings, Stargaming

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