[Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib (original) (raw)

Terry Reedy tjreedy at udel.edu
Thu Mar 21 02:17:08 CET 2013

On 3/20/2013 6:48 PM, Kurt B. Kaiser wrote:

It seems to me that we are seeing increasing use of IDLE for beginner training. I've seen several recent Python books that use IDLE as their programming environment, and which include IDLE screen captures in the text.

Well, one can hardly use Command Prompt captures, unless one were to flip black and white within the window (but not its frame).

I've always felt that IDLE should be targeted to an eight year old beginner, and should work uniformly across the major platforms. That now includes the Raspberry Pi!!

I think it should also work uniformly across Python versions. That is the gist of PEP434.

I believe it's very important that Python come with an IDE as part of the "batteries" - it's very awkward for a beginner to write code in something like Notepad and then run and debug it in a Windows command shell.

I cut and pasted when I began ;-).

IDLE has a single keystroke round trip - it's an IDE, not just an editor like Sublime Text or Notepad. In the 21st century, people expect some sort of IDE. Or, they should!

I have never understood those who suggest that an editor, even a super editor, can replace IDLE's one key F5-run, with one click return to the spot of the foul on syntax errors.

OTOH, development is likely to be more vigorous if it's separate.

Perhaps, perhaps not, or perhaps it would become 'too' vigorous if too many developers pushed multiple 'kitchen sinks'.

I'd also like to make a plea to keep IDLE's interface clean and basic. There are lots of complex IDEs available for those who want them. It's natural for developers to add features, that's what they do :-), but you don't hand a novice a Ferrari (or emacs) and expect good results. IMHO some of the feature patches on the tracker should be rejected on that basis.

Have you commented on those issues? I so far have mostly concentrated on fixing current features. I agree that major new features should be considered carefully and perhaps discussed on a revived idle-sig list. I have never used some of the existing features, like breakpoints, that seem pretty advanced. I first opened a debugger window only recently, in order to comment on a issue about a possible bug. We should document how to use that before adding anything else comparable.

It's sometimes said that IDLE is "ugly" or "broken". These terms are subjective!

When IDLE-closing bugs are all fixed, I would like to see how much difference themed widgets would make to appearance. Then we could debate whether IDLE should look 'native' on each platform or have a common 'Python' theme -- or have both and let users choose.

If it's truly broken, then we should fix it. If it's "broken" because a feature is missing, maybe that's an intentional part of Guido's design of a simple Python IDE.

Without a vision and design document, it is sometimes hard for someone like me to know which is which.

-- Terry Jan Reedy

More information about the Python-Dev mailing list