[Python-Dev] PEP 453 (pip bootstrapping) ready for pronouncement? (original) (raw)

Nick Coghlan ncoghlan at gmail.com
Sat Sep 28 02:40:30 CEST 2013

On 28 Sep 2013 00:08, "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen at xemacs.org> wrote:

Nick Coghlan writes: > I'm not sure what usage model you're assuming for ensurepip, but it > appears to be wrong. End users should be able to just run pip, and > either have it work, or else get a message from the OS vendor telling > them to install the appropriate system package. I don't understand how you arrange for that message on existing installs. Wouldn't it be easier to just lobby the distros to make Python dependent on pip?

Most distros of interest already emit that message - it's part of a standard mechanism to check for system packages if a command isn't found (and I believe even RHEL and derivatives may support this for pip if the EPEL repo is enabled).

And speaking of vendors, do you expect Apple and Microsoft to provide such a message? And such a system package?

No, that's why the proposal is to modify the CPython installers for those platforms.

If you already are running a Linux distro or MacPorts, you do "apt-get python-pip" and "port install py-pip" respectively. I bet Cygwin is the same with yet another spelling. Where's the problem? You say: > New users on Windows and Mac OS X. I've heard many more complaints > from folks running tutorials about the pip bootstrapping process than > I ever have from the community at large about the GIL :P I bet those users are not running third-party distros, but rather are sitting in front of pretty close to plain vanilla factory installs of the OS, no? And "new users" on Mac OS X already have "old installs" of Python, no?

No. Instuctors tell users on Mac OS X to install from python.org or use one of the third party package managers.

That's my model. In that model I don't see backporting PEP 453 to Python 2.7 as being a sufficiently reliable way to provide a smooth user experience to justify breaking the "no new features" rule (which is at the "read my lips" level after the True/False fiasco).

You have confirmed my belief that your model is incorrect. The feedback I have received is that the majority of beginners are introduced to Python by downloading the binary installers from python.org for Windows or Mac OS X.

Get a commitment from Apple to put 2.7.6 in their next upgrades for their OS, and then maybe you'd have enough leverage to tip the balance. I certainly would concede the point. But without that, you're telling Mac users "you have to upgrade Python from a 3rd party site." Is that really the way to make new users participating in a tutorial session happy? (You tell me, I'm just introspecting here.)

Yes, that's exactly what happens. People don't use the system Python on Mac OS X the way they do on *nix systems.

Cheers, Nick.

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