[Python-Dev] PEP 453 (pip bootstrapping) ready for pronouncement? (original) (raw)

Monty Taylor mordred at inaugust.com
Sat Sep 28 04:55:52 CEST 2013

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On 09/27/2013 10:50 PM, Donald Stufft wrote:

On Sep 27, 2013, at 9:20 PM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org_ _<mailto:brett at python.org>> wrote:

On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Zachary Ware <zachary.ware+pydev at gmail.com_ _<mailto:zachary.ware+pydev at gmail.com>> wrote: On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 3:29 PM, Donald Stufft <donald at stufft.io_ _<mailto:donald at stufft.io>> wrote: If it lives in the source tree how are you going to provent it from existing when someone installs on Linux? OSX? One of the BSDs? If someone is building their own Python from source--regardless of platform--they're obviously going to have ensurepip available one way or another, and such users will need to have it available to match the capabilities of the installer (or create their own). But if you're building your own Python, you should already know enough about what's going on to know when and whether ensurepip should be used and how. On the other hand, when you use an installer (be it Windows, OSX, or otherwise), you really only need ensurepip one time, ever: at install time. Even then, you don't actually need to know anything about ensurepip at all, just whether to check the box or not. If you decide you need it later, you can always re-install. It seems to me your [Terry's] proposal is to add the ensurepip module? except when they install it via Windows installer. The way I read Terry's proposal, it is to never add the ensurepip module, but to use (or make available, whichever makes sense in a given case) the ensurepip script when it is requested at install-time: specifically, put ensurepip.py in Tools/scripts, PC/, Mac/, or really anywhere but Lib/ so that builders can find it, but Python can't. In other words, don't make "import ensurepip" possible out of the box, and a lot of the "don't add new features in maintenance releases" blockade disappears, because you aren't actually adding any new capability to Python itself or its standard library. Of course, this proposal only applies to 2.7/3.3. Since ensurepip will be used for venv as well as initial install in 3.4, it should be a full-blown stdlib module in that version, probably even without the leading underscore. That's how I read the proposal as well. If that works then great, otherwise naming it ensurepip in 2.7/3.3 should be enough to warn anyone that they are playing with fire. I think Martin, Ned, etc. would need to weigh in on whether it's at all an issue having the ensurepip script somewhere that doesn't get installed but executable from the installer is at all an issue. For source it can just be in Tools for 2.7/3.3 if that's the route chosen. Regardless, one of these two options is enough and I suspect we can stop debating and let Martin make his BDFAP decision. Yes, no matter which way the decision for 2.7 and 3.3 goes the proposal is for "ensurepip" in 3.4+

I'm in favor of whatever causes it to get available in 2.7/3.3 in a way that's predictable. OpenStack is both very highly invested in pip installation of software and dependencies and also seemingly maniacally obsessed with continuing to support the older pythons people have. (eek, we have to support 2.6 until a new RHEL comes out)

To that end, we wind up bootstrapping into pip via distro packages, but then it's too old, so then people pip install -U pip - systemwide, so then pip gets broken on redhat and weird on ubuntu because of fail, and then they get angry and start yelling and I have to go hide in a hole.

If we could start, in tooling, depending on some predictable manner other than the distros to bootstrap into a sensible and modern pip, I believe my life would be so much better that I might grow a herd of unicorns.

Monty -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/

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