[Python-Dev] [PEP 576/580] Comparing PEP 576 and 580 (original) (raw)

INADA Naoki songofacandy at gmail.com
Tue Jul 31 06:10:48 EDT 2018

On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 6:14 PM Jeroen Demeyer <J.Demeyer at ugent.be> wrote:

On 2018-07-31 09:36, INADA Naoki wrote: > I think PEP 580 is understandable only for people who tried to implement > method objects. Is this really a problem? Do we expect that all Python developers can understand all PEPs, especially on a technical subject like this? To give a different example, I would say that PEP 567 is also quite technical and not understandable by people who don't care about about context variables.

Please don't "straw man" discussion!

I said "So PEP 576/580 are needed only when implementing callable object". I showed example "functools.partial or functools.lru_cache".

Using FASTCALL for callable object, instead of tp_call is one of important goal of PEP 576 and 580.

So, cleary, ordinal extension author should be able to understand and implement PEP 576 and 580.

If PEP 580 is accepted, we can make it very clear in the documentation that this is only meant for implementing fast function/method classes and that ordinary "extension writers" can safely skip that part. For example, you write

> They should learn PyCCallDef and CCALL* flags in addition > to PyMethodDef and METH*. but that's not true: they can easily NOT learn those flags, just like they do NOT need to learn about context variables if they don't need them.

Surely, they should understand they must use CCALL_* flags instead of METH_* flags when implementing fast-callable object.

>> I would like to stress that PEP 580 was designed for maximum >> performance, both today and for future extensions (such as calling with >> native C types). >> > I don't know what the word stress mean here. (Sorry, I'm not good at English > enough for such hard discussion). > But I want to see PoC of real benefit of PEP 580, as I said above.

"to stress" = to draw attention to, to make it clear that

OK, I'm very drawn attention to that already.

> Hm, My point was providing easy and simple way to support FASTCALL > in callable object like functools.partial or functools.lrucache.

That can be done easily with only PEP 580.

After spent several days to read PEP 580 and your implementation, I think I can implement it. I think it's not easy, but it's not impossible too.

But I think we should admit the fact it's complicated than PEP 576. Although I don't think it's important than some benefits of PEP 580.

NOTE that I didn't say it's a big problem. I just explained because you said "Can you be more concrete what you find complicated?"

-- INADA Naoki <songofacandy at gmail.com>

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