2024 MLS Playoffs Best of Three, Games 2 & 3 Referee Discussion (original) (raw)
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United States
Oct 18, 2020
Hollingshead’s 87’ yellow is something that could probably be considered at least borderline SFP if this wasn’t a playoff game. 2.
Arsenal
Jun 10, 2006
USA
Club:
Rangers
Nat'l Team:
United States
Fisher…
you know I used to think he was really good but it just looks like he just calmly watches teams hammer each other 3.
LAFC
United States
May 16, 2015
Land of the Free
Club:
Los Angeles Galaxy
Nat'l Team:
United States
No handball review in 40th minute of Charlotte/Orlando? 4.
LAFC
United States
May 16, 2015
Land of the Free
Club:
Los Angeles Galaxy
Nat'l Team:
United States
And now a very close offside call with no conclusive replay shown on the broadcast... 5.
What an odd game for the VAR process.
After four minutes of VAR check, the ref is called over for an OFR.
And the call still stands. As it should.
Not sure what the kerfuffle was about. 6.
Arsenal
Jun 10, 2006
USA
Club:
Rangers
Nat'l Team:
United States
MIA-ATL 32'
No idea how Suarez isn't booked for that dive 7.
or any of his other shenanigans
I guess the league like chaos for these games, but he's really letting them "play" 8.
Arsenal
Jun 10, 2006
USA
Club:
Rangers
Nat'l Team:
United States
65' no idea how Suarez and/or Campana wasn't booked for that goal mouth fracas 9.
Generally speaking, wouldn’t one get a yellow for shoving a goalkeeper in the net after a goal has been scored. Or getting in the keeper’s face and taunting him? 10.
Arsenal
Jun 10, 2006
USA
Club:
Rangers
Nat'l Team:
United States
11.
Arsenal
Jun 10, 2006
USA
Club:
Rangers
Nat'l Team:
United States
Generally speaking, yes, I would think so. 12.
Yeah, that one boggles the mind. Whatever Suarez said almost got him assaulted by Guzan, too. 13.
President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
Mar 14, 2020
Nat'l Team:
Korea DPR
1855440385574584789 is not a valid tweet id
Two handed shove a goalie into the goal after scoring on him? Run into the goalies face taunting him? Could give two cautions to cut that shit out that no one could complain about?
Nah let’s just give nothing. 14.
United States
Oct 18, 2020
How about option C: the goalkeeper gets sternly yelled at for being mad about it? 15.
Didn't Szpala do something like this like 2 weeks ago? Yelling at someone on the floor. 16.
Sep 7, 2011
Club:
FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
MLS officiating during the playoffs never changes. Just incredible. 17.
LAFC
United States
May 16, 2015
Land of the Free
Club:
Los Angeles Galaxy
Nat'l Team:
United States
This has been the biggest "swallow your whistle" year i can remember. 18.
Staff Member
I think believing "no one could complain" is naive here. The best possible thing Szpala can do there is get play restarted and he knows it. The (otherwise) simple act of having to administer multiple cautions there was just going to add to the powder keg.It did work, right?
I mean, look, obviously there are book answers here that are very different from the route Szpala went and practically correct answers that are very different than the route almost all referees should go in almost any other match. But just looking at a play like this in a vacuum and declaring it all farcical is pretty easy from the proverbial cheap seats.
We have a game-tying goal in Miami on an elimination match which has had one caution and now has 30 minutes remaining. Messi has scored it. He enters the net to collect the ball and a confrontation ensues with Guzan. Book answer one is "book Messi." Okay, who's doing that? Right. Now the next thing is that Guzan sort of grabs the ball and deliberately bumps into Messi as Messi entered the net. A perceptive referee will understand this. Guzan went into this entire thing trying to bait one of his opponents--hopefully a star player at that. Yes, by the letter of the law or our instruction, Messi is at fault for trying to grab the ball. But almost every professional player since the dawn of time does what he does and Guzan knows it, so he tries to cause problems. That's the first part of all this: Messi v Guzan and it occurs before all the stuff we're focusing on. You take things in isolation and you miss the forest for the trees.
So Campana comes in with his shove and Guzan falls into the net, rather theatrically. You be the judge of if that's all natural or not. And be the judge of if it absolutely needs a yellow. I suppose maybe. And yes, in almost any other match it does. But Campana is already back up field and Guzan has got away with his behavior with Messi, so realize what it's going to mean to call Campana back and card him.
Then Suarez does Suarez things. And Guzan gives as good as he gets in response. Yes, Suarez's behavior is probably more egregious or provocative to a mass audience, but I guarantee you if you're within 3 feet of proximity, that's not as clear. You can't book Suarez without booking Guzan there. And Guzan is going to blow his top if he gets booked.
So Szpala faces a choice. Book Guzan and Suarez and probably call back Campana to book him. Or... just get on with the match, understanding that everyone has the entire season on the line for the next 30 minutes and has incentive to behave overall. You know that you can have the next 30 minutes without a few players being on what are perceived as somewhat cheap yellows. So it makes it easier to navigate as a referee. Also, does anyone not believe the whole scene contributed to the entertainment value--particularly in person? The in-stadium negative pressure, so to speak, to not intervene is high there. Do people want to see the administration of three cards for behavior they don't really care about, or do they want to see play restarted at 2-2? The answer is obvious.
I write all this knowing that almost none of it is grounded in the Laws. But at a match like this in a situation like this, the Laws barely matter. Short of clear VC, the bar for referee intervention is rightly high here. You have a massively exciting game with some schoolboy idiocy temporarily interrupting it. No one is hurt. Get on with it. At least that's the path Szpala chose and I would argue it worked just fine. 19.
United States
Oct 18, 2020
I don’t understand this review at the decisive penalty kick in Orlando at all. It’s a crystal clear foul. Why is Elfath recommending a review there? They’re not looking at offside at all. 20.
Atlanta United FC
United States
Jun 7, 2018
So it all comes down to:
- this was an important game
- nobody is going to book Messi, right?
- Guzan initiated contact with Messi even though Guzan already had the ball before Messi came in
- Guzan pretended to fall hard when two-hand shoved from behind
- Guzan gave as good as he got after Suarez initiated taunting and vulgar screaming in Guzan's face
- fans didn't want any punishment to be handed out, because it's entertainment
I have some concerns with all of this except point 1. Unfortunately I'm not really qualified to judge Szpala or you, based on what I presume is your experience and training level.
But I don't like any of it, honestly. 21.
United States
Oct 18, 2020
Your perspective is very interesting to read, but I disagree with a lot of it, more than I care to specifically pick apart. The summary is that this feels like a lot of mental gymnastics to finagle your way out of cards for no good reason.
Guzan vs Messi is one thing, and I can accept managing that confrontation with no cards. But then Campana escalates it pretty egregiously. The push is outright reckless and disregards the danger it presents to the opponent. Of all the stuff in this fracas, this is the one thing that cannot be managed away.
Maybe this “worked” for the neutral fan who isn’t paying too much attention, but I don’t think it worked in the scope that it is at least part a referee’s job to enforce the rules. I mean the fact that you even suggest that the referee should take the stadium crowd’s atmosphere into consideration; if professional referees are actually doing that, that seems like a big problem! I think the league and the fans and just about everyone involved in sports would be rather outraged to hear that a referee avoided showing cards to the home team’s players because it would be a buzzkill for the home crowd. This is in fact a pressure that referees should be forcefully resisting at all times.
And look, I get this is all easy to say from the “cheap seats,” but a referee making wrong or very-hard-to-defend decisions shouldn’t be excused by the fact that it was the path of least resistance. Being a professional referee on huge matches like this is supposed to be hard, and IMO a huge part of that job is to resist the pressures and influences (such as the mood of the crowd, the starpower of the players, etc.) that force one down that path of least resistance. 22.
Might be nit-picking here, but I'd be surprised if Guzan embellished. I think he literally got caught in the net and lost his balance.
yossarian and orangefc repped this. 23.
Staff Member
I think reducing it to an enumerated list sort of misses the point. It's the overall scene and the fact that a number of your individual point aren't black and white. Specifically...I don't think any referee books any goal-scorer there specifically for what the behavior was and in the context of this match/moment. That it's Messi just is icing on the cake. And that it's Messi is also almost certainly why Guzan does what we'll discuss in #3 below. But, no, a 2-2 game-tying goal for a home playoff team where the attacker immediately runs in to attempt to collect the ball and doesn't engage in any violence himself? Despite how instruction is written, that's not going to be a card. No one expects that card. I never said "initiated," though I do think that is an open question and certainly the assessment might be in the eye of the beholder. But my point here is that Messi didn't run in, see Guzan with the ball, and slap it out of his hands. That would be a clear-cut situation. Here, Guzan sees that Messi is coming in and works to ensure there is a confrontation. Guzan does this because he knows the rules are written in a way that the attacker is the one deemed guilty for provoking any confrontation. Now, reasonable people can disagree on what that means here and how it should be applied. But my point is that looking at things myopically through the text of the laws or related instruction misses the real-world implications of player behavior and player personality. This isn't calling balls and strikes. This is managing volatile and influential personalities who are trying to game you, the referee, at every conceivable moment and trying to get any possible advantage they can. And I have concerns about all, too. This could have blown up. And in most any other match or match context, things are different. And maybe, in the heat of the moment, I choose to book Suarez and Guzan (those are the two I'd pick, honestly). All I'm saying here is that the decision tree throughout this isn't easy and shouldn't be black and white to the extent "well, that's cardable so we should card it." Ending up at no misconduct after this scenario in this match just isn't an unreasonable result. 24.
Staff Member
It's always worth asking if you're giving cards for a good reason, though, too. Cards are usually a tool to decrease the temperature of the match, among other things. I am very confident cards would have added fuel to the fire here. That should be a consideration that matters.
Look, in 99.9% of matches I'm doing, Campana is booked before anything escalates (I hope). Or Suarez and Guzan get booked. But in this match--a match of the sort likely none of us has ever done or will do...? I think this is a small blip and an incident that adds to the entertainment value. I understand why others either wouldn't recognize that or agree. 25.
Staff Member
I remain convinced he is the most overrated official in MLS.
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