Post-match: - So what is next for the Democratic Party? (Post 2024) (original) (raw)
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Only because I'm feeling kind of patient with you ...
Back in 2016 and 2020, Democrats had a chance to make inroads with some of the voters that did them in in 2024. Instead they spit on them and derided them as "bros".
Read the links I posted earlier and think about it before you jump to imbecilic conclusions about me purporting we should have nominated Bernie Fcuking Sanders.
2.
Oct 23, 2010
Club:
Newcastle United FC
That's fair, thanks. I did feel in 2016 that Clinton should have selected Bernie as VP to unite the kingdom.
Although I doubt the motivation of this so-called Bernie Bro voting group. To go from someone who wants to tax the rich/corporation and implement democratic-socialism to someone who is the embodiment of corrupt capitalism and wants to give tax cuts to the rich (either by letting Trump win or voting for him) is insanity. Sounds like a bunch of anarchists who just want an outsider to tear down the system. Not sure how you could placate them without actually nominating Bernie to the top ticket.
Also, weren't the young "bros" that overwhelmingly voted for Trump this past week mostly motivated by the anti-woke movement spread from variety of bro-casts? That's different than the 2016 Bernie bros. 3.
I'm actually not happy to read this, despite my own lack of faith. There's a decency behind your general cynicism that I think may have been at least partially formed in your church. 4.
I never really had the change to make. I went thru the motions a few times when I was taken to church as a young child, and I've been baptized, but it's never been a deep thing. Now, in third grade I was in Catholic school, and I really enjoyed the experience of attending morning mass with the kids I went to school with. The Catholic Church has centuries of experience in bringing folks along slowly. 5.
roadkit Greetings from the Fringe of Obscurity
They were mostly pickled in a brine of right-wing disinformation. Don't underestimate the extent to which a lot of these "new" Trump voters were radicalized online. That is the challenge -- you can't play "whack-a-mole" trying to refute every nutty thing they put on Twitter or Tic-Toc or you'll always be behind. Dems need to come up with a new strategy but they are WAY behind on that. Someone posted (can't recall the thread) that the Dems need to go hard at everything that goes wrong and blame Trump and the Republican Party. Make them own it all. They should start with the ACA. 6.
Staff Member
Palmeiras
Brazil
Feb 28, 2005
USA
Club:
Palmeiras Sao Paulo
Nat'l Team:
Brazil
A bit related ... compilation of Rogan's views of not so long ago. He could have been had by Democrats except for the whole anti-woke thing.
EDIT: I see you posted something to this point already. But here is the video that goes along with it.
Hear me out—Dems did once “have their own Joe Rogan”—his name is Joe Rogan, who is inherently not MAGA. He was a fan of Obama, Bernie Sanders, Andrew Yang, universal healthcare, taxing the rich, and disliked Trump. And Rogan reaches men that Dems need.pic.twitter.com/1kggcJFuIs
— Eric Feigl-Ding (@DrEricDing) November 7, 2024 7.
Nov 23, 2012
Club:
Real Madrid
best thing to do is copy some of the things that worked for the other side;
it don’t have to be an foul mouthed Trump type, but still someone willing to rattle feathers/buck the system. Even the Reps borrowed from Bill Clinton when they got their own hipster with George W
get away from political correct/WOKE/ identity. It might of worked when our economy was in good shape, but not when everybody’s struggling
obviously it’s good to have several coalitions but don’t put some of the unpopular ones on the forefront. Kamala actually appeared on an pro trans podcast even though something like 90% are against trans in women’s sports
(all Dems) stop being so _condescending—_whether your knocking MAGA hard hats or most of Kamala’s rally’s at universities(or even though the majority don’t attend college) it felt like Dems had a chip on their shoulder like they’re smarter than the other side. Kamala turning down an invitation in Joe Rogan’s broadcast whereas Trump got 47 million views on YouTube alone might of been an game changer 8.
Mar 4, 2010
Chicago
Club:
Chicago Red Stars
Nat'l Team:
United States
The economist take, they endorsed Harris.
Democrats need to understand: Americans think they’re worse 9.
Apr 20, 2009
Olympia
Club:
Seattle Sounders
Nat'l Team:
France
I've read summaries from various people as to why Kamala lost, but none of them rang true with me until this one. It was written by a phone bank volunteer who spoke with over 1,000 people. He brings it down to a few key things.
1. The economy (but not what you assume). Specifically, while things were ok for the people he spoke with, they talked about how things were bad for "others". In other words, they believed Trump.
2. Kamala is both too tough and too lax on crime/law & order / too incompetent and too competent. In other words, they believed Trump.
3. Kamala is a woman.
He sums it up as follows:
This is consistent with my observations. To put it another way, Trump lied, lied, lied, lied, lied, lied, lied and lied some more. Networks, newspapers, twitter, tiktok, etc broadcasted those lies repeatedly and often reinforced (some of) them. If people hear a lie enough times, they will believe it to be true. [edit: Misinformation has been mainstreamed]. Throw in misogyny (and racism) and you have the results of this election. We can easily see the misogyny aspect in these forums based on the trolls that came out from under the bridge immediately after the election. 10.
I think this the biggest piece. Unlike his predecessors, Biden wasn’t out front touting his accomplishments or taking briefings or sitting down and doing extended interviews. He didn’t control the narrative of his achievements. And if you don’t do that, the grievance/fear momgering coming from someone who never misses an opportunity to shout his disjointed opinion will take over. He’s never been as witty as a WJC to Obama, but he didn’t need to be. He was relatable in the same as a Dubya. His age robbed him of that. 11.
Latinos for Trump & soccer mommies are big Rogan fans I reckon. 12.
So what? Nobody is saying if Dems go on Rogan all their problems will be solved. People are saying you talk to voters where they are. A whole bunch of them can be reached through Rogan (and similar others). Other bunches of voters are reachable on other venues that Democrats tend to avoid (to their peril). The point is to make connect with voters wherever they are. It's not a hard point to understand. But Dems tend to refuse to understand this. 13.
Staff Member
Tottenham Hotspur
Aug 22, 2001
Near the mountains.
Club:
Tottenham Hotspur FC
Nat'l Team:
United States
I haven't read through this entire thread, so some of what I am going to say has probably been covered. It's basis comes from this episode by The Campaign Moment:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/podcasts/the-campaign-moment/democrats-play-the-blame-game/
1 - "It's the economy, stupid!" The famous B Clinton words ring true, particularly in this election. People do understand that current inflation is fairly steady, and that wages have increased, and that unemployment is at historic lows. But people also remember the time before the pandemic and before the world got turned upside down. It was a time when groceries were less expensive, when buying a car was easier, and home prices were "affordable." And that issue about home prices is likely the top line here, as I saw a recent report that the average age of a home buyer (any kind) was 56, up from 49 in 2023. And the median new home buyer was 38, up from 35 in 2023. And the more the numbers are looked at, the worse the situation. We have been told that home ownership is the way to prosperity. But it is now extremely difficult, and few are really going to want to take the time to find out why.
2 - Wrong assumptions by Team Harris. Team Harris made the assumption, based on prior voter behavior, that women would vote for her because they wanted access to abortion (among other things related to women). As it turned out, they did vote for access to abortion, at the state level, and then voted for Trump as President. Largely, it goes back to the perception of the economy, and the perception that Trump would be able to manage it better. Messaging.
3 - Lack of a primary for Harris. It was pointed out in the above podcast, that as late as the weekend before the election, Harris was still introducing herself to the voters. It has probably been said somewhere upthread that a primary was necessary, and I agree. It was needed to help weed out the interlopers, introduce the candidate, and build out policy. In Harris' case, that would have helped her clearly differentiate her from Biden (or what was good), and allow people to get comfortable with her, assuming she wins the nomination. Which I think she would.
But, what I heard on multiple Focus Group pods with Longwell was that people felt like Harris was foisted upon them. This was similar language with H Clinton, who had successfully eliminated her opponents apart from Sanders (and somebody forgotten). Even us, in this corner of BS, were not thrilled with that. And it was a repeat by Harris, even if it wasn't her fault.
4 - Sexism and racism. One of the things which will continuously be discussed is if people of the US are ready for a women, and more specifically a woman of color, to be President. What I have heard not just on the pod linked above, but on many others, is that people are making excuses for not voting for Harris (she was forced upon us; I don't know her policies; what is her background?; etc.). But most of it seems to be, primarily, that she is a woman. And that we don't see women in high level positions of power, such as CEOs (which are a proxy for women being able to handle the economy). I also can't help but think of the idea that women who are CEOs tend to be brought in to fix a company and then ousted when they turn around that company - credit is not given were credit is due. Seeing the comparisons to Biden and H Clinton, it does seem to me that the issue is more gender than race. Point 3 would help with this, and would confirm if we Dems do, in fact, accept a female as our nominee.
4a - We Dems are clearly not adverse to have women in power, and women of color. Both Delaware and Maryland both elected Black women to the Senate, the third and fourth Black women to be elected, and first to serve at the same time. And we also have elected other women of color to the Senate as well. So, electing a former prosecutor and attorney general? To me it seems a real possibility when that person is able to remove other excuses (it's the same thinking I had of electing Obama in 2008). 14.
Staff Member
Tottenham Hotspur
Aug 22, 2001
Near the mountains.
Club:
Tottenham Hotspur FC
Nat'l Team:
United States
Rogan doesn't do all pods about politics either. He has people from all walks of life show up on his pod. 15.
Apr 20, 2009
Olympia
Club:
Seattle Sounders
Nat'l Team:
France
It's amazing how a college drop-out can influence so many people - but they do tend to be on the right, so they are prone to believing authority figures (think church, as one example).
stanger and Auriaprottu repped this. 16.
Instead of being amazed, it'd be more productive to analyze.
soccernutter repped this. 17.
She did Fox. Trump never came near a mainstream outlet.
Like was posted above, the "force of nature" that is Donald Trump was apparently unbeatable. He's a rotten human with bad ideas but 'Merica luvs them some Trump. So here we are. 18.
So what? Fox isn't the end-all-be-all here. Nor is going on there the point. And it didn't hurt him. Probably helped him. Democrats should learn from that and stop kissing the mainstream press's ass -- as if that helps them win votes. 19.
Apr 20, 2009
Olympia
Club:
Seattle Sounders
Nat'l Team:
France
It's been analyzed for decades. He's just the modern Rush Limbaugh who spouts anti-intellectualism. Americans have a very long tradition of disrespecting people accomplished in their academic fields in favor of the "average joe" who tells it like it is.
This dates back to the Revolutionary War and ties in to the rise of American forms of Christianity, which rejects the notion that you need someone to interpret the Bible for you because "everybody can read the plain language of the text". Philosopher Michael Ruse goes into this in "The Creation-Evolution Struggle", if I remember the title correctly.
It's one of the reasons why there is never a liberal equivalent to people like Limbaugh or Rogan, given liberals are more prone to critically evaluating what they are told, rather than trusting someone who "speaks the obvious truth". The example I use in class is how the earth revolves around the sun, which contradicts the "obvious fact" that the sun rises and sets, as demonstrated by our use of the terms. Anybody can see for themself that the sun rises and sets, it defies "obvious" logic to suggest it's really the earth that is moving around the sun, even though the sun has a clear and predictable path across the sky.
Explaining reality takes time and involves additional assumptions and basic knowledge, which many people are usually not willing to listen to. Saying what is "obvious" is quick and easy. A perfect example is transgender. Biology is more complicated than what people can "obviously see". To explain the actual reality requires a lot of additional work.
tl;dr Soundbites are easier than complicated explanations.
gatotkaca3 and song219 repped this. 20.
So what? If you want to win elections, then bad and ineffective communication habits will need to change. 21.
So if you're not "woke" or you abandon the traditional Dem constituencies, what do you stand for? White supremacy? Hatred of the LGBTQ community? Stripping of women's rights? It's generally not in modern Democrats nature to do that. Yes, we have to win elections. But being Republican lite hasn't really worked. Obama was a rock star to some extent and bizarrely, so is Trump. 22.
Throw the niqqers under the bus and maybe the people who fear niqqers will be kinder to the rest of the minorities. 23.
Apr 20, 2009
Olympia
Club:
Seattle Sounders
Nat'l Team:
France
In that case I would recommend finding some billionaires to buy the various media outlets, social media platforms, etc. 24.
This is the kind of thinking that just consigns the Democrats to minority status.
soccernutter repped this. 25.
Staff Member
Tottenham Hotspur
Aug 22, 2001
Near the mountains.
Club:
Tottenham Hotspur FC
Nat'l Team:
United States
And how did this "force of nature" do against Biden?
Just passing it off as charisma or something like that is unhelpful and doesn't help win elections. No doubt he has charisma, but it has been shown that he can be beaten. Both my men (Biden) and by women (Carroll).
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