Reading the 20th Century - Group reads: Typhoon by Joseph Conrad (January 2020) Showing 1-50 of 73 (original) (raw)
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Reading the 20th Century discussion
Comments Showing 1-50 of 73 (73 new) post a comment »
Mod
Welcome to our nautically themed January 2020 group reads discussion. The poll was won by this book...
Joseph Conrad's Typhoon (1902)
Many chronicles have been written about life at sea, but few, if any, can compare with Joseph Conrad's masterpiece. It is the story of one unremarkable steamship captain, pitted against a storm of incredible fury. Captain Macwhirr has a reputation as a solid, steadfast man, who "having just enough imagination to carry him through each successive day, and no more" cannot fully believe any storm would be a match for his powerful ship. So, when the barometer and other clues begin to hint at trouble ahead, he is only moderately concerned and unwilling to change course and lose precious time-a decision that may prove more costly than he could ever have imagined.
This discussion will open on or around 1 January 2020
Thanks Nigeyb!
The writing is atmospheric, and I like this. The impending storm looms. The stillness and hot air feels palpable. Good writing. How is the steadfast, calm and dependable Captain Macwhirr going to hold up? Is pandemonium going to break loose among the coolies?
The book has a good start.
Mod
Great questions...
Chrissie wrote: "How is the steadfast, calm and dependable Captain Macwhirr going to hold up?
Is pandemonium going to break loose among the coolies?"
...which will be answered as the story progresses
I'm jealous of you reading it without prior knowledge
Mod
To what extent are readers finding the so very literal Captain MacWhirr amusing?
I was genuinely amused by parts of this book and, having read a few other books by Joseph Conrad, never expected to be lauding his comedic writing skills
Mod
Another question, for when you reach the the descriptons of the typhoon.....
...how exciting and convincing do you find Conrad's descriptions?
Nigeyb wrote: "To what extent are readers finding the so very literal Captain MacWhirr amusing?
I was genuinely amused by parts of this book and, having read a few other books by Joseph Conrad, nev..."
I am seeing the humor too. I don't remember the exact lines I found amusing, but I was laughing. My husband remarked on this.
I bet the storm is going to be scary. I mean, I am edgy already at the start--the heat and heavy quietness is creepy.
message 9: by Judy (last edited Dec 30, 2019 11:00AM) (new)
Mod
I've read 30% so far and agree about the witty prose style being enjoyable.
Loved this sentence:
"He never wrote any letters, did not seem to hope for news from anywhere, and though he had been heard once to mention West Hartlepool, it was with extreme bitterness, and only in connection with the extortionate charges of a boarding house."
Mod
I'll hop in to discuss after I've read the book. I'll probably finish later today.
message 12: by Judy (new)
Mod
I have finished and have impressions. First, however, the edition I read has a nice biographical introduction. I excerpted a couple of tidbits that seemed pertinent.
Long before he developed a reputation as an outstanding novelist, Conrad enjoyed a full and accomplished career as a mariner. By the time he was just sixteen years old, Conrad attained both the permission and the aid from his uncle to move to Marseilles, France, and begin his career as a seaman. Conrad first worked as an apprentice and then a steward, and sailed on both the Mont-Blanc and the Saint-Antoine. After a debatable suicide attempt by a gunshot in the chest in 1878, Conrad made a significant career choice when he joined the British mercantile marine. It was in this organization that he spent the next sixteen years of his life, and rose in rank from third mate, to second mate, to master. When he acquired his Master's Certificate in the British Merchant Service in 1886, he chose to adopt British nationality officially.
Throughout his travels, Conrad witnessed and became disturbed by some of the more unfavorable aspects of imperialism: greed, corruption, and the mistreatment of native peoples. Conrad explored these issues in depth throughout the majority of his works, and quickly developed a literary reputation as a pessimistic skeptic.
Judy wrote: "Captain MacWhirr's lack of imagination starts as a bit of a joke, but, as the storm begins, is starting to look more like a fatal flaw - he has never experienced a typhoon and therefore doesn't bel..."
To me, this seemed only a joke to those who served under him. He was a sober, steady man, just exactly who you'd want in charge. I found the opinions of those who served under him to be the ones to smile about. I especially thought funny Mrs. MacWhirr dreading his coming home permanently.
Mod
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "MacWhirr was a sober, steady man, just exactly who you'd want in charge. "
Yes, I agree with all of that however he is also so literal that he gets confused by everyday phrases and I think it's understandable that a reader might conclude he was ill equipped to deal with extraordinary events like a Typhoon. He also seems reluctant to take any advice, be it from his crew or specialist books.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I found the opinions of those who served under him to be the ones to smile about."
Indeed, that's where a lot of the humour comes from.
message 16: by Susan (new)
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message 17: by Judy (new)
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I've just found a passage that struck me early on about MacWhirr's lack of imagination and understanding:
Dirty weather he had known, of course. He had been made wet, uncomfortable, tired in the usual way, felt at the time and presently forgotten... But he had never been given a glimpse of ... the wrath and fury of the passionate sea. He knew it existed, as we know that crime and abominations exist; he had heard of it as a peaceable citizen in a town hears of battles, famines, and floods, and yet knows nothing of what these things mean -- though, indeed, he may have been mixed up in a street row, have gone without his dinner once, or been soaked to the skin in a shower.
message 18: by Chrissie (last edited Dec 31, 2019 02:03AM) (new)
I have not yet finished the book yet, but so far these are my thoughts.
For me it just seems that this storm,in its size and fury, is beyond what MacWhirr has had to deal with in the past. I think this must be separated from his personality. I see him as a steadfast, comparatively calm and cool thinker, a captain, you would want to have on a ship where you were a passenger. He is a guy who relies on himself. He disdains book learning. He clearly wants to do what is morally right, if he can, if it is possible.
Elizabeth, thank you for the biographical information from your book.
message 20: by Clare (new)
I wouldn’t normally have read this without it being chosen for the month. I like Conrad on the whole but sea adventures are not my bag. That said, I found the descriptions of the typhoon exciting.
MacWhirr is an interesting character. His lack of imagination proves a strength when faced with the crisis of the typhoon. Undisturbed by thoughts of what might happen, he calmly gets on with the job, while Jukes panics. But it is his lack of imagination that has brought the ship to this point. He cannot conceive of anything outside his own experience and so leads the crew into a risky situation.
There are some amusing little portraits of the sailors’ relatives at home. My favourite is the wife of Solomon Rout bellowing at the curate.
Clare wrote: "He cannot conceive of anything outside his own experience and so leads the crew into a risky situation."
I think the advice of crew (was it Rout or Jukes?) would have us believe that another course was less risky. We have no evidence that it would actually have been less risky. There was no radar nor no planes that could verify the location of the storm. I am not necessarily defending MacWhirr's choice, just observing that we don't (and can't) know that the ship would not have faced the same peril should it have changed course. (I also wonder that he'd never faced a typhoon before. Wasn't he 3 years in the South China Sea? How could he not have been through one before?)
I do fault MacWhirr for his callous treatment of the "coolies" and not seeing to their safety. Even if this was a bigger storm than he'd ever faced, he was aware that this was going to be a rocky trip. At least Jukes set up safety lines for them, eventually. Not that I thought Jukes' feeling of superiority was laudable, and I'm not convinced his thinking they were fighting is accurate. I think they were simply being thrown around by the violent tossing of the ship.
Mod
MacWhirr is certain of his competence however this has never been fully tested.
Both MacWhirr and Jukes can see the rapidly falling barometer and realise this means a typhoon.
MacWhirr consults some textbooks however ignores the advice therein.
Jukes is amazed at (but respectful of) MacWhirr's decision to maintain his course and meet the weather head-on (and not sail behind or around it).
I have finished this and given it four stars.
I have a question which I am hoping some of you can help me with.
What is the significance of the ship being under the Siamese flag? Why did Conrad decide to make it this way? I am thinking he had a reason.
Mod
Chrissie wrote: "What is the significance of the ship being under the Siamese flag? Why did Conrad decide to make it this way? I am thinking he had a reason"
My guess is that the Siamese flag was a flag of convenience which meant the ship's owners avoided some of their obligations had the ship been registered as British.
Jukes is obviously disconcerted by this change of registry, apparently associating the red, white, and blue of the Union Jack as a symbol of security and safe passage.
The literal minded Captain MacWhirr fails to understand the implications of the Nan-Shan’s transfer from its original British to a Siamese registry, and also, amusingly, reads Jukes’s dismay at the change as a comment on the design, size and shape of the Siamese flag. MacWhirr checks its dimensions, colours, and insignia in his naval guide and then tells a disbelieving Jukes that it is correct in every way.
Nigeyb wrote: "Jukes is amazed at (but respectful of) MacWhirr's decision to maintain his course and meet the weather head-on (and not sail behind or around it)."
Which may not have been possible anyway.
Mod
Typhoons and hurricanes are both cylones with a low pressure centre, strong winds and a spiral arrangement which produce heavy rain.
A typhoon's intensity lessens the further you get away from the eye. By monitoring the barometer it should be possible to head towards the rising air pressure and so avoid the worst of the typhoon. Indeed, Jukes suggests changing course to avoid the worst of the storm, but MacWhirr rejects this, and the advice in the textbooks, partly because he has never experienced a typhoon but mainly because of the cost of the extra fuel and the delay in arriving at their destination.
It's interesting how context shows the strengths and limitations of the contrasting personalities of MacWhirr and Jukes.
MacWhirr reads the maritime manuals on dealing with storms, but chooses to ignore them.
Jukes is meanwhile dashing about the ship making sure everything is ready to survive the typhoon.
However, as soon as the the Nan-Shan sails into the typhoon, Jukes believes everything is lost and despairs of surviving the experience
By contrast, MacWhirr sticks stubbornly to protocol and practical solutions to each immediate problem. He is resolute and focuses on the tasks required to maintain order.
Ultimately it is the literal and one dimensional MacWhirr who saves the day, though I suppose you could argue he could have avoided or minimised the impact of the storm, but that was never in his mindset.
In my conjecturing as to the unlikely circumstance of MacWhirr never having experienced a typhoon, given his work in the area, I decided to google Fu Chou. Allowing for spelling differences of the time, I think they were heading to the Chinese province of Fuzhou, which then city I don't know. In part, Wikipedia has this to say about the climate (emphasis mine).
Fuzhou has a humid subtropical climate (Köppen Cfa) influenced by the East Asian Monsoon; the summers are long, very hot and humid, and the winters are short, mild and dry. In most years, torrential rain occurs during the monsoon in the second half of May. Fuzhou is also liable to typhoons in late summer and early autumn.
I think the idea of a character trait being both a strength and a weakness, MacWhirr's lack of imagination in this case, is a common theme in Conrad's works. I agree with Elizabeth that changing course to try to avoid the storm may not have helped, but a more imaginative type of man might have tried. On the other hand, his steadiness, which also comes from his lack of imagination, gets his ship, crew and his passengers / cargo through the storm successfully.
Mod
Perhaps it would not have helped but that was the advice of both Jukes and the maritime texts MacWhirr consulted.
Elizabeth, you conclude that MacWhirr had experience of sailing through typhoons? I am not so sure...
MacWhirr observes they are in for 'dirty weather' which is either wilful understatement or ignorance. I took it to be the latter. The other crew members more fully comprehend the magnitude of what they are sailing into. None of them seem to have much confidence in MacWhirr.
According to Conrad, the story isn't about the typhoon itself, but its impact on the characters. MacWhirr is at the heart of the tale and if he was a different captain, one who had taken evasive action, we might not have much of a story. Conrad needs him to be someone who is unable to deviate from his orders and his duty by running from the storm.
Nigeyb wrote: "Elizabeth, you conclude that MacWhirr had experience of sailing through typhoons? I am not so sure..."
No, that is not my conclusion. In fact, Conrad makes it clear MacWhirr has not had such experience. My question is that Conrad's insistence that he had not experienced a typhoon is a mistake by the author. Typhoons in that part of the world are almost routine.
I often rail at readers who wanted a different story. (And, by the way, I gave this 5-stars, so I'm not really in that category here.) Still, I can't help wondering "what if".
With MacWhirr's lack of imagination and disdain of books, what we know of him is that he'd do exactly that which was within his own knowledge. What if he *had* had experience? What if he had turned the ship, thinking he would miss it, and it ended up being directly into the typhoon? Typhoons/hurricanes have a tendency to wobble, they are not entirely predictable. The rest of the story would be the same, would it not?
Mod
Nigeyb wrote: "I understand now. Although, as I mention above, Conrad needed someone with MacWhirr's personality (and experience) for the story to work as he wanted."
Yes, indeed. And he was the only one to be calm and steady throughout the storm. He also seemed to be the only one who knew what was coming after they passed through the eye.
message 34: by Judy (new)
Mod
I have read the story on Kindle, but have just received a very slightly late Christmas gift - a lovely copy of the Oxford World's Classics edition of Typhoon and Other Tales, which has this beautiful cover. I am immediately imagining this character as MacWhirr. I am looking forward to reading the other stories in the collection.
message 35: by Clare (new)
Nigeyb wrote: "Perhaps it would not have helped but that was the advice of both Jukes and the maritime texts MacWhirr consulted.
Elizabeth, you conclude that MacWhirr had experience of sailing through typhoons? ..."
It’s very interesting what you say about Conrad’s intentions, Nigeyb. As I was reading it, I didn’t get much sense of any character development. I think they are the same at the end as they were at the beginning. But this could be because I was concentrating too much on the descriptions. Maybe I need to read it again.
message 36: by Judy (new)
Mod
Interesting discussion of MacWhirr. The Oxford World's Classics edition includes "Concise Rules for Revolving Storms" from Tait's Seamanship, a seaman's manual (1902 edition) - it's hard for a layman like me to follow, but gives advice about which direction to divert a ship in, depending on the direction of the wind.
The note goes on to comment: "It will be seen that, in defiance of standard procedures (such as those of the Hydrographic Department), MacWhirr directs his vessel through the centre of the typhoon."
This confirms my opinion that he is initially a very reckless captain, who risks the lives of crew and passengers, simply because he refuses to take the storm seriously and doesn't want to arrive late - he says it would run up "a pretty coal bill". So in effect he is putting cost ahead of human lives.
I was quite surprised to see the positive comments about him by others here, as from my initial reading I thought he was the last person you would ever want in charge - but, thinking about it some more, I can see that he changes during the storm and does a lot to redeem himself.
From the other Conrad novels I've read, I think he is fascinated by characters who make terrible mistakes but work to redeem themselves, as MacWhirr does here, with his courage and steadfastness. I'm not sure if he ever recognises that he made a mistake in the first place, though.
message 37: by Judy (new)
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Val wrote: "I think the idea of a character trait being both a strength and a weakness, MacWhirr's lack of imagination in this case, is a common theme in Conrad's works. ..."
Ah, that makes a lot of sense - I was thinking that he develops, but maybe he just stays the same, and the dogged sticking to his original course which is so disastrous when initially reacting to the threat of the typhoon turns into a positive point when he is in the midst of the storm.
message 38: by Clare (new)
Judy wrote: "Val wrote: "I think the idea of a character trait being both a strength and a weakness, MacWhirr's lack of imagination in this case, is a common theme in Conrad's works. ..."
Ah, that makes a lot ..."
I agree with both Val and Judy. MacWhirr’s weakness becomes a strength in a specific setting.
Judy wrote: "This confirms my opinion that he is initially a very reckless captain, who risks the lives of crew and passengers, simply because he refuses to take the storm seriously and doesn't want to arrive late - he says it would run up "a pretty coal bill". So in effect he is putting cost ahead of human lives."
I think it didn't occur to him that he was putting lives at risk. His experience did not include such a violent storm. Jukes does refer to the "coolies" but I can hardly think well of Jukes and his treatment of those men.
message 40: by Chrissie (last edited Jan 01, 2020 01:44AM) (new)
I have really been enjoying reading all your thoughts! The added information several of you have given is very helpful.
Nigeyb, your answer to my question is so thorough and clear. I appreciate this. I too noted the humor in how the captain checked the flags's dimensions, as though that was what was wrong, not that the ship's registry had been altered. I was wondering a bit if he was in some way involved in the registry change. If not involved, how did he view the change? Any thought?
The captain is so reliable and so steadfast and despite what appears to be a lack of imagination, he did get them through the storm....with the help of the boat being, from the beginning, extremely sturdy. Conrad stresses this in that talk about the faulty lock.
It is amusing to draw the clear parallel between the captain and his ship. It is little things like this that make the book special. The humor is important and that the author gives the reader topics to think about above and beyond the storm.
I had to wait until January to download the book from Hoopla since I had maxed out my Dec borrows. I’m listening to the audiobook narrated by Scott Brick.
Mod
With regard to the change in registration: I think Conrad includes this to show the different characters of MacWhirr and Jukes. As Nigey said, Jukes is disconcerted by this change of registry, and he may be correct in associating British registration with security and safe passage at that time. ('Britannia rules the waves' and all that.) MacWhirr does not see it as a big deal and points out that the captain and crew are still British, even when the ship is no longer registered there. I did not get the impression that the owners had consulted him about the change, or anything else to do with the ship. They employed a reliable captain and then just told him where to pick up and deliver the cargoes.
With regard to MacWhirr's experience: He has had experience of tropical storms less severe than a typhoon, although it is difficult to tell how severe they were from the descriptions. MacWhirr seems like the kind of person who would downplay quite severe storms as 'a bit of dirty weather'.
The ship suffered superficial damage and arrived looking quite bashed about, but it does not seem that it was ever in danger of actually sinking. A less sturdy ship would have been in more trouble. It was fortunate that there were so few injuries.
I also read 'The Nigger of the Narcissus' (which is overdue for a change of title), where another ship experiences a storm. This time it is a sailing ship off South Africa, and it really is in danger of being lost.
Did they have other "cargoe" than only the coolies on the ship? I don't recall.
I would have to look it up, but I think they loaded other more usual cargo and were then told to transport the coolies.
In any case, there is very little said about other cargo and had the ship been under British registry would the transport of the coolies been allowed? These questions circled around in my head.
They might have had to provide better accommodation. During the First World War, not too many years later, Chinese labourers were transported in troop ships, which had basic passenger facilities.
Chrissie wrote: "In any case, there is very little said about other cargo and had the ship been under British registry would the transport of the coolies been allowed? These questions circled around in my head."
I don't know why it wouldn't have been allowed. Many areas of southeast Asia were British territory.
message 49: by Judy (new)
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Judy wrote: "I had the impression that at the end some of the coolies have been seriously injured , and the extra dollar that is given to the three worst injured is hopelessly inadequate."
I believe it said there were 3 with broken legs and one died. The extra dollar was because dividing it equally among all of them didn't actually come out even.
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