[Python-Dev] PEP 453 (pip bootstrapping) ready for pronouncement? (original) (raw)

Terry Reedy tjreedy at udel.edu
Fri Sep 27 22:09:01 CEST 2013

On 9/27/2013 3:10 PM, Donald Stufft wrote:

On Sep 27, 2013, at 2:50 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

I add: for 2.7/3.3, there is consequently no need for ensurepip to be in /Lib after installation, even if temporarily added*. If it is not there, there is no change the the stdlib, and hence no violation of the 'no new features' policy. The optional installation of pip is not a change to Python itself. This sounds like a really bad idea to me.

Why would you think that an idea aimed at ending an argument blocking your proposal is bad. This seems like a really bad response to me.

You're going to end up with a different stdlib not only by minor release, but by if they installed through an installer or not.

The current proposal is to add a new module to the stdlib in a bugfix release, which looks like a violation of current policy. We agree that that end result of pip installed would be good. We are arguing over whether adding '_' to the name makes it not a violation or whether the good outweighs the bad of a violation. I claim that the arguement is not necessary and can be ended by not making the addition or by hiding it.

I presume your objection refers to the fact that one can clone the repository and compile Python on Windows, albeit with some difficulty. My three responses:

  1. I do not consider the the result to be 'installed Python', at least not as I have used the project file.

  2. The ratio of people building Python on Windows to those downloading and running an installer is so close to 0 that it can be ignored. People who build Python on Windows are not typical Python beginners.

  3. If you do not agree with 1 and 2 and object to _ensurepip being in /Lib in such limited circumstances, then either put it in /Tools/scripts or do not use it at all. I already said that the 2.7/3.3 Windows installer maker (Martin) should decide whether to even use it.

  4. The argument for including _ensurepip somewhere in the repository it that people who do build python.exe could then use it to install pip the first time. /Tools/scripts would be sufficient for this.

  5. The result of not having /Lib/_ensurepip in installed Python would, in any case, be a lessor violation of the policy.

-- Terry Jan Reedy

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